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[Felix the Cat]

quote:Originally posted by Pnx:
<STRONG>

Heh but wouldn't the villagers notice if a child suddenly started throwing rocks around to get stronger?</STRONG>

Nah, he'd just engrave the entire village twice over and gain the strength of a living deity.

[tombhart]

How will windows work in the new version, and will it be possible to create the same effect by rewalling with glass?

also, I'm not sure this is relevant, and feel free to ignore this if it's not easy to explain, but will it be possible for dwarves to fish/drink out of 'flood' areas? for example-

~~~~A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~CXX
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~XXX
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~XXX~~~~~~~~XXX
~~~~~~~~~XX~~~~XXBXX~~~D~~~XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

A is the ocean- a tile that you can use to fish
B is a section of beach that was dug under and collapsed via supports
C is the new coastline- will it be possible to fish from here? or will the new water be considered 'flood' and be unfishable?
D is, of course, the fortress. this is also why i am wondering if we can rewall with glass, because i want to have glass tubes leading from building to building.

[Turgid Bolk]

Hooray for glass walls! I imagine they would look like this, or knowing dwarves, like this. You could see a short distance through them, distorted of course. Not nearly as clear as windows.

As for glass tubes, I think you'll have some trouble making a glass ceiling/floor, but it's a cool idea.

[tombhart]

I'm not certain how I'd get glass floors/ceilings, but I know from the most recent development video that when you rewall with stone, the next Z-axis up is given a 'smooth stone floor' at the coordinates of the rewall. Maybe if windows are similar to rewalling, this could apply as well?

also toady, when you get around to the alchemy arc, an 'amphibious' potion would be  the greatest thing ever. currently, if aquafort starts leaking, I can't think of a way to go outside and repair the damage   :p

[Toady One]

Handling things like floodgates and windows and doors from above is kind of an outstanding annoyance -- like how it handles somebody trying to walk over them when the space above is an open space.

I think fishing at the new location probably wouldn't work right now -- it'll need some kind of extra check for it at the time of fishing.

[Ruggan]

Guilty as charged, yes I did play Asheron's Call.

Point being, I didn't so much expect the stats to be pulled over (as I noticed there were some holes and whatnot when writing the post) as I was more hoping that it would spur some discussion, which it did.

Anyway, Toady:

Are there going to be any synergies between statistics?  Will training a physical statistic simultaneously aid a mental one?  Are there going to be any innate characteristics/statistics of characters (aside from personality) that are relatively untrainable and can only possibly be changed from a major lifetime experience (e.g. near-death, family dies, have a child, etc)?

[Ruggan]

Ooh! Also:

Is there any sort of update to statuses of dwarves (tiredness/thirst/etc.) and will any of these give a temporary modifier to statistics (e.g. I'd imagine that drinking a lot of dwarven wine would probably lower one's balance)?

[Arkan15]

To change the subject entirely:

Too deep scenarios. How about there are more than one?

For instance, on "Icy/freezing/glacier" maps, a different fictional metal is used in place of adamantine, and the demon is an ice demon instead.

On peaceful maps, evil lurks below the surface and somewhere at the (-10) to (-15) Z-levels is a cthulu-like temple, which, if you dig into it, has some awesome artifact doohickeys in it but promptly awakens some ancient star god or another who gribblifies your fort.

On "Evil" maps, maybe a Vampire noble comes once you have a king and begins turning your other nobles into vampires. Once too many turn, you get too deep'd.

All of these could have different changes caused in Adventure mode when you visit- the Ice demon might freeze all of your dwarves into pillars of ice and leave them lying around blocking corridors and you have to smash them; the Cthulu star god would eat all your dwarves and the fortress would be full of cultists and all your rooms would have weird insanity-inducing stuff in them; an in the Vampire scenario; there are no extra monsters; rather; every dwarf in your fortress is converted into a zombie/skeleton monster; every tame creature into some kind of undead monster, and your nobles into vampires, led by an overlord vampire.

Eh? Yes?

[MoonCabbage]

The current End-Game was only just a quick band-aid because a majority of the game wasn't complete enough for a fortress to go any further. With this next installment i imagine most mountains will have a demon deep within their bowels but i think Toady envisioned most fortresses to burn out(literally: ala boatmurdered) through goblin sieges and epic wars. I can imagine inner turmoil and coup d'états to be prevalent as well. And i'm sure Toady has some supernatural and unnatural plans in store for us. we can only hope epic Skeletal Fish wars await our dwarves.

[Whiskey Bob]

I'm hoping that there won't be any more 'too deep' style game-enders.  Losing a fortress is fine, but being completely helpless against a wholly scripted event sucks.

[Ruggan]

Also, what's going to happen if a player rewalls the area in which the caravan spawns?  Will they not appear?  Will they appear elsewhere?  How about if they enclose the spawn areas on the edge of the map and set up rewalled flooding zones to kill any spawning creatures/sieges for massive profit?

[Lightning4]

It'd be nice if the loss of the fortress was more detailed too, if more ways are put in for the fortress to meet its demise. It'd probably be a simple check, and go back a few months in history and find out how the majority of the dwarves died, and if anyone survived to leave (abandon), or wholly wiped out. Survivors also automatically grant the knowledge to legends, otherwise the adventurer probably has to find this out on his own or ask around. Not that this matters, you know how your own fort ended.

Like if you drown your fortress but a couple people survive, and you abandon:
"Rockpick was a fortress founded in 1051.
etc lore
etc lore
Dwarfy McDwarferson made an artifact shoehorn.
etc
In 1059, a mass flood washed through the fortress, claiming many lives. Dwarfy McDwarferson and Thor Genericdwarf were the only survivors."

"Obsidianboulder was a fortress founded in 1051.
etc
In 1072, the goblins of Killdwarf staged a massive assault on Obsidianboulder. There were no survivors. Goblins claimed Obsidianboulder as their own."

"Ashencrafted was a fortress founded in 1051.
etc
In 1060, a dragon happened upon the fortress and killed many dwarves. The dragon was killed but it killed many dwarves. The surviving dwarves lost their will to stay and soon abandoned the fortress.

[ September 10, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[Dryn]

quote:Originally posted by Arkan15:
<STRONG>To change the subject entirely:

Too deep scenarios. How about there are more than one?
</STRONG>

Those are cool ideas but I would rather them come about naturally, i.e. I get invaded and subsequently taken over by Vampires because I built my fortress on/near their base and then pissed them off.

[I3erent]

Im just hoping the adamantine can be playable without dooming your fortress to perma fort death.

[Toady One]

I'm all for stat/skill synergies when they would apply, though there aren't any at this point.  I'm not sure what you had in mind for innate unchangeable stats.  In Armok 1, attributes had several aspects to them, like the current value, how much "rust" is on it and the total potential.  So you might be able to train your intelligence for example, but only up to a certain potential, which might be far lower than that of another creature.  And if you don't use a stat or skill, it would develop rust on it, which eats up part of your improvement points until you work it off, and rust also lowers the value of the ability while it is there.  Rust that accumulates to great numbers can permanently lower the current value as well.  I use the word "rust" because it's like...  "Can you ride a bike?"  "Well, I'm rusty..."  So you can't ride the bike perfectly at first (and can in fact screw up pretty badly), but you quickly shake the rust off and are back at your previously level with hardly any permanent demotion in skill.  I might put something like that back into DF.

In the currently released version, hunter/thirst etc. cause skill modifiers, and I haven't done anything else with it.  Nobody gets drunk yet, which is unfortunately.  That'll be changed in time.

You can't block off the edge of the map with walls.  There's a buffer zone of a few tiles where you can't build things that block.  I thought this was more realistic since being able to block somebody just by virtue of the fact that there's an artificial map edge is silly.  It's not a huge buffer zone though, so it won't constrict play much at all.

Lightning, yeah, in general I'd like to compress each individual history entry into events about which it could write a more coherent narrative.  There are some difficulties associated with it though, and like the interface, it can be premature to try to polish it while core elements are still in flux.