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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 158086 times)

Merlon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2235 on: September 01, 2007, 07:08:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>We talked about roofing a little...  somewhere. You have to build an up or up/down stairway beneath the square in question, then you can add a floor from above (or that might just be on the list).</STRONG>

If the tile is allready accessible from the top of the adjoining wall, is the stairway still necessary? Will our carpenters be able to build moveable step-ladders to speed things up?

Also a related question if you don't mind. If, using rewalling, we were to build an outdoor fort (with a roof) on top of our mineentrance, what restrictions would apply? Ie: Would things like drawbridges, smoothing/engraving, traps, farms, beds (do they still sleep outdoors?) etc work as if placed indoors in the mountain?

Would sieging buildingdestroyers like trolls see the rewalled tiles as a building rather than a wall and barge straight through? Would this in turn depend on buildingmaterial?

Sorry for all the questions, the next version really sounds like alot of creative fun.

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Vengeful Donut

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2236 on: September 01, 2007, 08:09:00 am »

From the tragedy video, it seems like rewalling creates smooth walls. If they really act like smooth walls, you can't farm on them.
As for seige, we have been promised that -something- will be able to break them  :)
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frostedfire

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2237 on: September 01, 2007, 08:14:00 am »

a) could we put down indoor items (eg beds) in the outside now? or do we dig a hole in the ground to put it in?  eg I want a manned bunker outside the fort, can I have
code:

........g..g....
................
...╔╬═╬═╬═╬═╬╗..
g..╬@.....@..╬..
...║.<B.B.B..║..
...╬....@....╬..
...╚╬═╬═╬═╬═╬╝..
........g.......
where fort/dirt are as they are in-game,
@ is your defenders
B is beds for defenders
< is the downstairs ramp out of the bunker
g is dead goblins  :D

or do I have to have a little two-level bit like this:

code:

........g..g....
................
...╔╬═╬═╬═╬═╬╗..
g..╬@.....@..╬..
...║.<     ..║..
...╬....@....╬..
...╚╬═╬═╬═╬═╬╝..
........g.......

%   % ,  % .   , .
 .     ,    %  .  
,  %╔═════╗,   ,
.  , ║B B<B║ %   .
%  .╚═════╝.  ,  
,    %   ,   %  .

with a bottom level where the beds/exit road are


b) I can tell you why those dwarves aren't pulling fish out of the water...

urist clashphlegm, fisherdwarf cancels fish: interrupted by kraken  :D

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Asehujiko

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2238 on: September 01, 2007, 08:28:00 am »

Are we close enough for an ETA yet?

I remember reading somwhere that everything that's roofed is considered inside so i think you can put them in the bunker.

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....E.EE.EEE.EE..EE.EE.E..EEEE..E..E.E...EEE.EEE..E.E..EE

Grek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2239 on: September 01, 2007, 09:16:00 am »

I think creatures should be represented by 1 tile, but be resricted in movment. A dragon, cannot move on any tile directly next to a wall(marked with a !) in this example. It would look normal to the player.

code:

....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!########
....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!########
....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!########
....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!!!!!!!!#
.D..!##### ..D.!##### ....!!!!!#  ....!!!....!#
....!##### ....!!!!!# .......D!#  ..D.!#!....!#
....!##### ....!##### ....!!!!!#  ....!!!....!#
....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!!!!!!!!#
....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!########
....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!########
....!##### ....!##### ....!#####  ....!########

Elephants would need at least 1 side, both north/south and east/west not touching a wall.

code:

.....##### .....##### .....#####  .....########
.....##### .....##### .....#####  .....########
.....##### .....##### .....#####  .....########
.....##### .....##### .....#####  ............#
.E...##### ..E..##### .........#  ............#
.....##### .....!!!!# .......E.#  ..E..#!#..#.#
.....##### .....##### .........#  ............#
.....##### .....##### .....#####  ............#
.....##### .....##### .....#####  .....########
.....##### .....##### .....#####  .....########
.....##### .....##### .....#####  .....########

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Greiger

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2240 on: September 01, 2007, 01:40:00 pm »

quote:
or a single E in the middle of a border... then again, with graphical tilesets in... it'd just be a single large graphic centered in the middle of the tiles.

I do like that idea, but if theres going to be a massive number of large creatures hanging around you might need to put something in all that empty space. I can just see a herd of elephants looking more sparse than it really is, even with the borders.
EDIT: Of course that would be made moot with graphics, and I'm all for people using graphical tiles but the game probably shouldn't look half empty just because you use pure curses 800X600 either though. I kinda like the default.

Maybe just a straight block of the creature color on each tile with the creature's symbol in black(or white) over it? You would still want the borders there to identify 2 elephants standing next to each other (and to tell the elephant from the granite wall) but that might need to be some universal animal colored border of some kind.

Although I would like it eventually I'm in no hurry for it.  Multi tile creatures would likely lead to creature facing directions, then creature facing directions to deciding what part is hit from a particular direction, and that would lead to a whole slew of headaches on Toady's part I'm sure. (You can't hit any critical body parts on a dragon from it's tail end after all.)
I am anxious for my hill dwarf fortress.   :D

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Greiger ]

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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2241 on: September 01, 2007, 02:00:00 pm »

We've talked about larger tile creatures at length before.  The pathing issues are non-trivial, so it's not going to happen any time soon.

It's a bit annoying how rooftops are built now, and you can't build them from the side.  It'll probably have to be redone at somepoint, because building a roof tile by tile is silly and makes no sense.

I think it still treats various places as outdoors.  I'll have to mess around with it more to figure out what restrictions make it too annoying.  I have a note somewhere that I need to handle the bed and other furniture restrictions.

Rewalled tiles aren't seen as buildings.  I haven't promised anything for this release regarding sieges.  In fact, they won't break the walls down for this release.  Later, they'll have to be able to overcome these obstacles.

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Tamren

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2242 on: September 01, 2007, 03:17:00 pm »

Roofs could be built with scaffolding right? Scaffolding is pretty much a temporary floor. In most cases it does not have any stairs in it, ladders are built into the supporting frame. I visited a construction/engineering expo in vancouver some time back. Only one of the booths had a company that made scaffolding but they made it very well.

It was an interesting system, the supports were made of straight poles, at the bottom they fit into "boots" that are bolted to the ground, on the top they have a socket that lets you put another pole on top. Every 2 feet or so on the poles there is this disk shaped plate with triangle holes in it. This allows you to attach beams and supports to the pole in 8 directions instead of 4. These plates also double as stairs so you can climb the scaffolding wherever there is a pole. There were lots of add-ons, everything from floors, fences, canopies and whole staircases.

Anyhow since this is DF, much is abstracted. Would it be possible for dwarves to construct "scaffolding beams". These would work exactly like buildings work now. Need a certain size? Get so and so number of beams and the building is done, when demolished you get them back.

The scaffolding would give you a temporary platform that dwarves could get on to do work in out of reach places. What makes the scaffolding special is that you do not need stairs to change levels and it does not block movement if you built a solid cube of 5x5x5 out of scaffolding, dwarves could move to any tile within, all without stairs.

Additionally when standing on a single tile of scaffolding you can work on and build stuff on adjecent tiles. These can be in any direction, you can work on the 9 tiles above you, the 8 tiles surrounding you and the 8 tiles surrounding the scaffolding on the level below if the scaffolding is more than 1 level high. Pretty much any space except straight down.

What also makes the scaffolding unique is that because it is a frame you can build another block of scaffolding in the block you currently occupy! If you build a single block you can climb on top of it which places you on level two. You then build another block of scaffolding around you, climb on top and you are now standing on level 3. Simple.

So say you needed to build an empty 3 level 4x4 tile tower. When done it would look like this spread over all 3 levels. Being the roof the 4th level has no walls, only floor:

code:

#### #### #### ++++
#++# #  # #  # ++++
#++# #  # #  # ++++
#++# #### #### ++++


Like you showed in the mule video you can accomplish this with complicated stairs. But instead what if you could simply build a 2x2x3 block of scaffolding in the tower. It would allow you to access every space you need to make the tower, all without stairs.
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Turgid Bolk

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2243 on: September 01, 2007, 04:51:00 pm »

I like the scaffolding idea, except if they were implemented without restrictions, I wouldn't bother with stairs and ramps. Just put some scaffolding down.

So the scaffolding should have some disadvantages, like only being able to support one person at a time. A dwarf should move slower moving through scaffolding, and particularly slower when climbing up or down. It should also be difficult-to-impossible to haul a big heavy boulder up scaffolding without help (since you need both hands for climbing). A dwarf would have to have someone hand the material up to him, or lift it using rope after he climbs up. Scaffolding would be good for building with light materials like wood, or jobs like mining and engraving (which don't require lifting of materials). Ramps would be used for moving heavy materials to the construction square.

Basically stairs and ramps should be the preferred construction for permanent places, just like real life. Most people don't want to climb scaffolding to get to the second floor or basement of their house. Scaffolding should generally be used for construction or temporary access.

Anyway, it would be still be really useful just like you said.

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Tamren

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2244 on: September 02, 2007, 01:05:00 am »

*edit:friggen code tags make the window too wide

Oh there are lots of restrictions to it i just forgot to write them down. I left home in a hurry   :(

So to deal with this there are a bunch of options:
a. You can have dwarves pass material to each other, this moves material up the scaffolding but requires more manpower. 2 dwarves for every object or one dwarf on every level. This is the only method that will work in most cases.

It would take a lot of scripting but it would help if dwarves moved material in bulk whenever it was needed. What that means exactly, is if i was building a wall on top of a scaffold and the job needed 8 stone blocks. Instead of me hauling the blocks up one by one with a helper, the available haulers would form one or more "bucket chains" to move the material for me while i was working.

A simpler way which is not as efficient is to use stockpiles. Since the scaffolding is temporary flooring you can designate stockpiles on it and dwarves will move the materials up as quick as they can. This way you can store materials close to the worksite.

b. You CAN build temporary stairs that are a part of the scaffolding and they are taken down the same way. But the stairs take up space and that might make them impossible to use. For one you need 2 squares free at the base of the stairs, one square in front so you can get on and one square for the stairs. One level higher you need a clear space to get off of the stairs and of course the floor above the stairs can not be used.

Because of the size this makes the stairs only usable in scaffolds with enough room. But remember, these are temporary and easily taken down! you can build the stairs, use them to move materials up, and convert the space back to normal scaffolding so you can stand on it again. This is how it looks in-game:

code:
  
This is the smallest enclosed space that can support
a double staircase and still be completetly functional.
The entire building is filled with scaffolding.
####### ####### ####### +++++++
#%%%%%# #%%%%%# #%%%%%# +++++++
#%%>%%# #%%>%%# #%%%%%# +++++++  
#%%%%%# #%%<%%# #%%<%%# +++++++
#%%%%%# #%%%%%# #%%%%%# +++++++
####### ####### ####### +++++++
lvl1    lvl2    lvl3    roof


If the staircase can not fit indoors, you can build a staircase "tower" 2X3 wide and as tall as you want and attach it to existing scaffolding. As the scaffolding and the walls rise you leave a gap in the walls so that material can reach the upper level via the stairs. Once that level is done you fill in the walls to make them complete. You then extend the scaffolding and the stairs one level and begin again. The wall you just completed one floor down bridges the scaffolding inside the building and the extended staircase.

Make sense? if not i have to draw it again.

c. The last option you have and the most efficient is to use mechanical help. A pulley assembly requires a lot of rope but can be used to quickly and efficiently move material upwards. A platform and a counterweight can move materials in bulk, but is much more complicated, same with a crane.

The holy grail of this sort of thing is an elevator assembly. Afaik they really did have this sort of thing in medieval times. Instead of a motor people would stand in a hampster cage sort of thing and turn it in order to lift objects.

2. Because it is an empty frame, moving on the scaffold is dangerous. Movement in any direction will be slowed someone if dwarves are beside an edge without a wall. Additionally dwarves forced to use scaffolding as stairs will get unhappy thoughs from it unless they have a job to do on the other side, nobles and children will refuse to get on it at all.

3. Depending on what you make it out of, scaffolding can only support so much weight. In the beginning you will be using wood beams and fittings. Later on you will want to replace the fittings with stronger metal ones. For exceptionally tall scaffolding you would have to construct it out of solid steel. Weight will not become an issue for a long time. Since there are 15 Z levels up and down the highest scaffolding you could possibly make would be 30 levels.

All-wood scaffolding can be built up to 5 levels high before it needs support of some sort. This means if you are in the middle of nowhere and decide to make a scaffold tower, 5 levels is as high as you can make it before it becomes unstable. To go higher than 5 levels with wood alone the scaffolding must be supported by a wall or more scaffolding.

The way the system works is sort of like the cave in mechanics, Example:

code:
  
The scaffolding tower in the middle of
nowhere would look like this for 5 levels.
+++
+%+
+++
Now since it is built entirely out of wood
it must be supported in 2 directions.
A wood scaffolding tower that goes
up to 10 levels would look like this:
 +++      +++
 +%%      +%+
 +%+      +++
lvl 1-5  lvl5-10
At 15 levels the base would look like this,
and the the rest of the scaffolding would taper accordingly:
 ++++
 +%%%
 +%%+
 +%++


Make sense? The higher you go, the wider the base and so on. When you start to use stronger materials it allows you to go higher with thinner scaffolds.

[ September 02, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

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Markavian

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2245 on: September 02, 2007, 03:50:00 am »

My thought for 'scaffolding' was to simply build wooden ramps and walls inside the building until you reached the top... then later remove those ramps once the stonework around them was constructed. This only has the disadvantage that you have to fill the entire space with wood, and it will block movement.

How do briges work in the new map system? Could we build a tower with an access ramp around the outside, then bridge over the top of the tower to form a roof?

How about ladders?

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Merlon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2246 on: September 02, 2007, 05:45:00 am »

It would probably be best to keep it simple, both from a programming and gameplay point of view.

Forcing dwarves to come to a crawl should be enough to discourage permanent scaffolding/ladders.

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Vengeful Donut

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2247 on: September 02, 2007, 06:25:00 am »

This all seems very difficult to use. I would rather employ stairs even if that was available. I presume the stairs will work the same as seen in adventure mode, and that makes them pretty powerful. A staircase doesnt have a specific facing - it can be entered from any side. Also, a staircase can be placed directly on top of another one (this is displayed as an X iirc). Often seen in kobold and/or goblin forts before the archers turn you into a pincushion.

[ September 02, 2007: Message edited by: Vengeful Donut ]

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TheSpaceMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2248 on: September 02, 2007, 06:38:00 am »

quote:
Also, a staircase can be placed directly on top of another one (this is displayed as an X iirc)

Yes i belive so to, i think there is a fort image / movie from the new version showing it as well.

It's going to be so exciting to see whats going to be possible in the next version.

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4bh0r53n

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2249 on: September 02, 2007, 11:46:00 am »

to make the scaffolding more balanced, why not give it wear.

A scaffold standard lets dwarves move at 100% of their normal speed
A xscaffoldx lets them move at 75%
a XscaffoldX lets them move at 50%
a xXscaffoldXx lets them move at 25%
(think thats right on the symbols for wear)
you cannot make anything better than a standard scaffold

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