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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 158140 times)

I3erent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2085 on: August 21, 2007, 11:46:00 am »

Hey toadster have you decided how you will handle adamantium in the future? I have developed an addiction to the stuff and keep freezing my game when i move the furniture to a new fort, in the next release will we be able to utilize the precious more?
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Fedor

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2086 on: August 21, 2007, 02:12:00 pm »

Comments on Dwarf Fortress (interface)

I've played enough Dwarf Fortress to have some comments to share.  The rest of this post, although written as though it were fact for the sake of brevity, is pure personal opinion.  Much - probably most - has already been mentioned by others: please consider any repetition here a reinforcement of their arguments.


Interface

Interface is the weakest part of this game.

ToadyOne is clearly right not to focus too much on interface at this stage of development, but there are some interface misfeatures that actually trip up the gameplay, making it more difficult to learn what works, and so progress in design.  For the game designer, interface may seem merely decoration, but for the player, it is what serves up the game experience.  Additional features (such as vertical building) will add depth, richness, and complexity.  The existing interface is poorly suited to handle any additional load.  Players need more effective tools to handle more interesting tasks.

Speaking generally, this game is more at war with its own interface than almost any other I've played; it is /possible/ to do extraordinary things in Toady's uniquely brilliant engine.  What is currently /practicable/ for us to do is needlessly truncated.  An unfortunate truth about too many games, including this one, is that they are most fun on a small scale and when starting out; mere micromanagement kills more fortresses then the elephants.


Among the problems I personally had trouble with were:

Inconsistant keybindings.  I trip up over and over again when trying to navigate the menus; no sooner than my fingers get the idea that 9328 navigates than they must re-learn /*-+.  No sooner than I get used to the 'd'esignate interface ('d' to mine, return to select a corner, navigate, and return again to select a box) then I must re-learn how to plot a field or bridge (use letters).  Some interfaces actually combine these.  It almost seems the game is determined to experiment with every single method of using the keyboard to control stuff; this drives me to distraction!

Excessive number of commands.  It is unnessary to require the player to use 'q', 't', 'v', and 'k'; these should be reduced to at most three:  one to look at a grid, one to look at/manipulate stuff, and one to examine creatures.  Better might be using shift and control (look, examine, manipulate).  Certainly better would be single left click to select grid, left click again to get details, or right click to manipulate.  And the other hand stays on the keyboard to navigate menus.

Excessive depth of menus.  It is unnecessary to require five keystrokes to start editing a dwarf's profession; an example of an alternative method within the limited space is to list the major commands, and then lump everything else into a '*' option.  So viewing a dwarf's opinions would require 'v', then '*', then "return".  Better would be right-click, pick from list.

Utterly inadequate information display on dwarves (the subject of several player add-on programs such as Dwarven Taskmaster that I find more and more necessary after the first year).  Sorting for skills, for unhappiness, for lack of rooms, for lack of current employment, for married status - these are just some of what we need to fully wallow in the coolness of this underground version of The Sims.

Disorganized information display.  For example, you cannot learn what your soldiers are up without delving into the 'v' interface, the 'm' interface, and the 'x' interface.  Even if you run through all these, the game won't tell you if a soldier knows where his barracks are, where his bed is, whether he recognizes a place to shoot or spar, or whether he really is actively using a quiver, backpack, etc.

Lack of needed controls - certainly of user-friendly controls that I actually understand.  I don't know how to do anything with a specific object; I can't ask to decorate it, move it to a specific spot, wear it, drop it, ignore it, etc..  Choosing objects when building is a PITA; I'm given a list, and it's (somewhat) easy to control material type, but no information on location is given.  Here again, the game design is at war with the interface:  While the key to an efficent fortress is stopping those idiot dwaves from running around so much, the interface is not much interested in helping out here.  (The topic of movement really deserves a seperate post, so I'll stop here)


Focus:  Screen display

Dwarves move as quickly north-south as they do east-west.  Effective fortress design means not designing for a 80x25 screen, but the insistance of the interface on this exact size makes planning difficult.  The usage of tiles taller than they are wide may look better on screen, but gives a misleading visual impresson of the fort - in essence, it is distorted.  As Toady introduces the more varied mountains shown on the development screenshots, this problem is going to get a lot more noticable, even to old-time players used to coping.

More than this, the entire interface is vertically crammed.  It is perfectly clear why the game has so much trouble displaying information, uses overly-complex menus, only shows the handy display of idle dwarves when a message isn't shown, and so on:  Everything has to fit in exactly 25 lines of text (less borders).  In similar projects, including curses itself many years ago, interface has consistantly evolved along approximately the following lines:

1.  Give the user control of screen size - how many characters wide and how many deep, subject to minimums required by the game.
2.  Let the display show multiple screens.  In a 80x43 screen, for example, use the top 25 rows for the main display, and the remaining space for display of menus, dwarves, messages, tiles, etc.
3.  Go semi-graphical.  Keep showing tile-based displays, but allow for pixiel-level positioning of displays and borders.  
4.  Allow different tilesets in different displays, so players can either get more information or accomodate a small screen.  How about a minimap?  It's a lot easier than some might think ... if you take it step by step.


Focus:  Choice of API

Dwarf Fortress is in alpha.  If I were the designer, not working for a pure Windows audience, and wanted to offer any sort of graphics, I would be using SDL.  SDL isn't the fastest, the most capable, or the most modern API, but it is the best API for an alpha project I've ever used. It is genuinely cross-platform, extrodinarily simple and straightforward, lavishly documented, and more than powerful enough for present purposes.  Moreover, SDL is designed as a wrapper around OpenGL; you won't have to change APIs; when you need the power (and have time for the complexity!), you will migrate to OpenGL at your own pace.

[ August 21, 2007: Message edited by: Fedor ]

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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2087 on: August 21, 2007, 06:56:00 pm »

Kidney infection.  No fun.  I was stuck in the clinic for several hours.  Anyway, hopefully the antibiotics will work.  Up to 103F.

You'd need the topo-lines or blue backgrounds or something.  If you have a L-1 to L-3 interface, you wouldn't even be able to tell in that system, especially if it's a pit or something, like

code:

.,,.
,.,.
,.,.

One of those commas is 2 levels lower than the others.

I haven't decided on adamantine/deep down stuff.

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Vengeful Donut

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2088 on: August 21, 2007, 09:01:00 pm »

You could leave the display for lower levels exactly the same as the current level, except for the colored background; changing shades as you change levels.
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KrunkSplein

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2089 on: August 21, 2007, 09:49:00 pm »

Fedor - too much text!  Throw it in a new topic in the Suggestions forum, and then edit your post to link to that new thread.

As for the z level stuff, I still say we'll need to play before we get a real feel as to what will work.  I'm still a fan of sized dots + topographical lines.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that even though I'm playing BioShock, I can't stop thinking about DF.

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Dreamer

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2090 on: August 21, 2007, 10:02:00 pm »

Well...  Dang, you've got a point.  The only thing I can think of, then, is figuring out what all isn't used as a ground object, but is still visually appealing...

Maybe this, for mucho clarity (There's virtually no confusion, I think), but fewer displayed levels:

code:

L-1 | L-2 | L-2 | L-3 |  L-4
`.,'.^:::::^=====^-----^#######
'.,`'^:::::^=====^-----^#######
'.`,,^:::::^=====^-----^#######
`.,`.^:::::^=====^-----^#######

Or this, for more specifics, but more of a risk for confusion (Everything at seven and eight, or even at five and up (Down?), could be colored the light blue that is currently in for things at level 3)...

code:

L-1 | L-2 | L-3 | L-4 | L-5 | L-6 | L-7 | L-8
`.,'.^%%%%%^:::::^=====^+++++^-----^~~~~~^#####
'.,`'^%%%%%^:::::^=====^+++++^-----^~~~~~^#####
'.`,,^%%%%%^:::::^=====^+++++^-----^~~~~~^#####
`.,`.^%%%%%^:::::^=====^+++++^-----^~~~~~^#####

Either way, more than what we have now is better than...  well... what we have now.  But I'm just making suggestions...

There's more characters, if this forum'll display them...  Here it goes for the character map: Ξ or ≡ (Could probably be one level down), ≠ (For more levels), ≈ (If the ~ is used).

And ☺ can always be used for dwarves.     :)

Okay, since, amazingly, all of those symbols work, here's an example for the most levels I can think of to be shown (Well, minus one that I thought were confusing or ugly):

code:

L-1 | L-2 | L-3 | L-4 | L-5 | L-6 | L-7 | L-8 | L-9 | L-10 | L-11
`.,'.^ΞΞΞΞΞ^≡≡≡≡≡^:::::^≠≠≠≠≠^=====^+++++^-----^≈≈≈≈≈^~~~~~~^#### ##
'.,`'^ΞΞΞΞΞ^≡≡≡≡≡^:::::^≠≠≠≠≠^=====^+++++^-----^≈≈≈≈≈^~~~~~~^#### ##
'.`,,^ΞΞΞΞΞ^≡≡≡≡≡^:::::^≠≠≠≠≠^=====^+++++^-----^≈≈≈≈≈^~~~~~~^#### ##
`.,`.^ΞΞΞΞΞ^≡≡≡≡≡^:::::^≠≠≠≠≠^=====^+++++^-----^≈≈≈≈≈^~~~~~~^#### ##

[ August 21, 2007: Message edited by: Dreamer ]

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Savok

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2091 on: August 21, 2007, 10:06:00 pm »

Pixilial tiles? NO.

While I would like the ability to customize every image of something (e.g. so I could make more difference between the farm ≈ and the river ≈ than the color), that would greatly complexify the graphics, something which I think Toady is highly against.

EDIT: Fedor, the keybindings aren't as bad as you make them out to be once you get used to them.

[ August 21, 2007: Message edited by: Savok ]

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saijonas

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2092 on: August 22, 2007, 02:06:00 am »

Toady.
Go to bed.
Don't touch the computer till you feel better.
Thank you.
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Deathworks

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2093 on: August 22, 2007, 03:41:00 am »

Hi!

Fedor: While I agree that some interesting information (like marriage status or age!) is withheld by the game, I don't think the controls are that messed up. Sure, shifting from designations to farm plots can get you once in a while, but since you are placing buildings (farm plots) while the game pauses, that is not really an issue.

And I would rather not see the game require the use of the mouse. In the end, with a game of this complexity, you can't abandon the keyboard completely, and games that force you to use both mouse and keyboard, in my experience, have just about the worst playability ever! (I have learned proper typing, so if I want to do more than one key stroke, I prefer to use both hands on the keyboard)

My experience is that mouse is best for simple action games, mine sweeper, and games that are heavy on graphics and graphical menus with up to mediocre depth. With any game without big shiny buttons to click on or with a real major play depth, keyboard is usually much better and much quicker than mouse (because you either clutter the screen with all the necessary buttons or you end up with going through dozens of menues, which takes quite a lot of time with mouse controls).

Toady One: I hope you will get better, now that you got some medication. Don't worry about us. Even though we are all drooling for the new version, we are already having a great time with the one you have already given to us. So, don't push yourself and take things easy for a while. We are all grateful for what you have done for us so far, so we don't want you to destroy your health.

Deathworks

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TheSpaceMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2094 on: August 22, 2007, 05:22:00 am »

A side note with SDL. SDL falls under GPL, Gnu Public License. That means that even taking donations to make the game, breaks the GPL and can make it count as a "comercial" product, and Toady would have to realease the source code for every release of Dwarf Fortress. It's my guess he's not willing to do that.

Also, since the game is already running OpenGL, there wouldn't be any point converting it over till SDL if not a release for a Linux, Mac are planed, and then there would still be a lot of work to make it work on both systems, this added to that it's in alpha makes the work even more... pointless. I can see a convertion for multiple systems when it reaches "final" status.

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Grue

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2095 on: August 22, 2007, 05:42:00 am »

quote:
That means that even taking donations to make the game, breaks the GPL and can make it count as a "comercial" product

Bullshit. GPL is not about commercial/freebie, but about open-source/closed-source. There are companies which sell GPL stuff, and there are thousands of OSS projects which accept donations (look at Sourceforge).

Your other point is also false, since SDL is licensed under LGPL which allows using it in closed source projects.

That said, switching from OpenGL to SDL at this point would be too much work for Toady for no apparent benefit.

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nornagon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2096 on: August 22, 2007, 07:22:00 am »

I wrote a wrapper around Kobold Quest to make it run under linux, without SDL (and without any other restrictively licensed libraries). Toady has it. A native linux Dwarf Fortress may (or may not) be in the works!
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TheSpaceMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2097 on: August 22, 2007, 09:12:00 am »

Ah great, no need for further disscutions in that department then.  :D
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WillNZ

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2098 on: August 22, 2007, 09:26:00 am »

Toady, I registered simply to tell you this... take it easy! You are extremely dedicated, much more than 99% of us, but it doesn't do anyone any good to stress out while they've got a kidney infection. After all, Dwarf Fortress would *never* get done if you, god forbid, kicked the bucket!

All these dorks can wait for you to get better. Trust me.

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Xgamer4

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2099 on: August 22, 2007, 09:35:00 am »

Everyone agrees with you, Will.
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