Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[qwip]

Gah! the mountain is "backwards"!!
(just kidding)

As for mineral deposit depth vs value, perhaps previous generations of humans/dwarves/elves have strip-mined all the easy-to-reach iron, gold & platinum from the surface and left the copper and silver. That might help explain the non-random distribution of ores and/or gems in the mountain. Or the gods did it...

Keep up the good work!

[TurnpikeLad]

I notice that although everything else including the edge of the mountain and the mineral veins has been changed from the old orthogonal layout, the rock strata themselves are still running exactly north-south.  Is there a plan to randomize them as well?

[Toady One]

You occasionally get a lump that is disconnected from the mountain, or a lump that is connected, but just not within the play area.  It gives you a little preview of the mountains overall shape.  It isn't zoomed in enough to see the small lumps but you can get a very general idea of what to expect.

Pool-type features are definitely going in, before rivers even, because they are technically easier to control.  To answer the other question, the major subterranean features aren't back yet.  I still have a lot of work to do.

I haven't decided exactly what to do with the endgame yet.  It could still generate "too deep" type situations locally, and these might involve adamantine.  This would work out more like the eerie glowing pits currently do, with a chance of having a proper demon.

I was thinking about allowing more variability in the rock structure, but it's an annoying problem.  Even in the screenshot there, it has used some global data to patch together 10x10 sections of the map -- to handle seams between world map squares, especially when the strata can be in any direction is difficult.  It's not impossible, but I probably won't attempt it right away.

[lumin]

quote:I haven't decided exactly what to do with the endgame yet. It could still generate "too deep" type situations locally, and these might involve adamantine. This would work out more like the eerie glowing pits currently do, with a chance of having a proper demon.  

I would really prefer that the demon's arrival not be triggered by any one specific resource.  If I know that adamantine brings a demon I will know to stay away from it until I am fully prepared.  I think that the overall chances of the demon appearing should increase, the deeper I go, but not because i triggered some specific event.

Also what is meant by  

quote:proper demon

?  I hope it means something more than just a message pop-up as it was before.

[Chthon]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>You occasionally get a lump that is disconnected from the mountain, or a lump that is connected, but just not within the play area.  It gives you a little preview of the mountains overall shape.  It isn't zoomed in enough to see the small lumps but you can get a very general idea of what to expect.

Pool-type features are definitely going in, before rivers even, because they are technically easier to control.  To answer the other question, the major subterranean features aren't back yet.  I still have a lot of work to do.

I haven't decided exactly what to do with the endgame yet.  It could still generate "too deep" type situations locally, and these might involve adamantine.  This would work out more like the eerie glowing pits currently do, with a chance of having a proper demon.

I was thinking about allowing more variability in the rock structure, but it's an annoying problem.  Even in the screenshot there, it has used some global data to patch together 10x10 sections of the map -- to handle seams between world map squares, especially when the strata can be in any direction is difficult.  It's not impossible, but I probably won't attempt it right away.</STRONG>

Umm.. Those lumps.  Wouldn't they be akin to hills.  Maybe we could utilize them for military lookout points, or posts in various strategic areas.

As far as endgame.  I'd rather something with a little more variety.  Either that, or an option to play an unrecorded sandbox mode if you win that does not affect the current world.  This way you can keep your fortress, or opt to start another, or an adventurer and visit the wonder of that city.

[ March 15, 2007: Message edited by: Chthon ]

[Svirfneblim]

My idea for a re-modeled endgame:

Very deep in the mountain there's be a place known as demon prison.
Demon prison would be a an enclosed are with adamantium walls. Inside there'd be some hell fissures as in the current game.
That way, digging out even one piece of adamntine would subject the fortress to demon attacks.
In the center of the 'demon prison' there's be a second ring of adamantium that would hold the biggest demon in it. Upon defeating the biggest demon, the game would end and fortress could be visited with the adventurer.

[Tylui]

Ooh... Those pictures... Make me want to do something crazy!  Or something.  They're brilliant!  And I'm loving the progress.

Any chance of an ETA, though?  

I think the end game should involve some resource that the Dwarves depend on.  Once it's depleted, obviously the fortress wouldn't work anymore, and it would have to be abandoned, or continued only in very small numbers, surviving on what they can be traded(Which wouldn't be a lot).

As for the exact resource, I haven't an idea...

[Black Hound]

quote:Upon defeating the biggest demon, the game would end and fortress could be visited with the adventurer.

Why force it to end right then and there? Why not enjoy your hard-won victory (and adamantine) for a while before choosing when you want to call it quits?

[lumin]

quote:Why force it to end right then and there? Why not enjoy your hard-won victory (and adamantine) for a while before choosing when you want to call it quits?

Exactly.

DF is a strategy/simulation experience just like the Sims or Sim City or Civilization, do any of those games force you to end after a certain point (Besides your own death)?

If you build up your Fortress and after a hard fought battle, finally defeat the Super Demon, I would like to keep playing until I come across another Demon or some other danger that threatens my fortress's existence.

I think this was Toady's intention from the start anyway.  He merely used the endgame as a place holder, for better things to come.

[ March 15, 2007: Message edited by: lumin ]

[TotalPigeon]

Well... I haven't checked the future of the fortress since january, and blow me if its not coming on! I wondered why the update was taking so long. It sure as hell looks like its going to be worth it.

Anyways... If all these new features are going in, and you're thinking about the old z-axis and indicators on the map screen for things like rivers and magma, one word - volcanoes.

They would be your dead certs for having a magma pool inside    but I think they'd have to erupt every now and then, with the pool flooding outwards really slowly for a season, then the whole things massively floods as it erupts and a lava starts pooling along the outside edge of the mountain. The flood could then subside, perhaps creating some obsidian. It would definitely be interesting the first few times - if it was also sometimes powerful enough to destroy a few floodgates as it erupted it would definitely screw with newbies forts too  

[Toady One]

When I said "too deep" situations locally, I meant that you'd be able to fight.  It's eventually might responsibility to make something that can waste you, not to just message you out of the game.  There's something to be said for the possibility of a message-type ending that you have to investigate with an adventurer, but only when adventure mode is up to par.  The downside is that until the world interactions and invasions and so on are good enough, games will just trickle out and become boring once you've shot out some mining tunnels and handled what there is to find.

I don't have an ETA, and I don't like to use them in general.  All I can do is say what I'm working on and what I need to work on, as I've been doing on the recent dev page.

Today I checked out reclaim:

Map

Reclaim

If the volcano is like that Mt. St. Helens explosion, it would just obliterate your game without warning.  Maybe your adventure could investigate that, although it wouldn't take long.

[schnobs]

quote:Map

Reclaim

Hmmm. I fail to see any cave entrance, so I'm not quite sure about what they're reclaiming. But the map looks good. Especially that secluded valley(?) up north. I notice for the first time just what possibilities you have when the rock face no longer is a straight line.

Does it go on forever? That is, could you in theory extend your fortress over the whole mountain range, or are you limited to what can be seen on the exported map?

Also, do you get your say in where you start, or will the wagons still be dropped (approximately) in the middle of the map, as seems to be the case here?

Talking about location... where would I need to build the road on that map?

[Toady One]

It no longer tosses out the wagon and other aspects of the site if you didn't dig -- since the maps are now completely determined by persistent seeds, using the start site again would just make the same map without the old wagon, so the old wagon might as well be left there.  So you can 'reclaim' even if you abandon immediately.  That's exploitable, but no more exploitable than it currently is.

You are still limited to the map you see there -- this is just a space/speed constraint now though, rather than a problem with how it is stored.  If people want to play fortress on larger maps eventually, it won't take so long to add.  It would also be possible to start your map smaller and just let you extend in the direction you want to extend, out to some limit determined by your system.  For now, it's 480x480 like it was before.  You can walk around the whole mountain range as an adventurer without walking off 'an edge' (or die of hunger trying anyway), and you'll find the fortress waiting there for you when you get back.  There is still an edge at the N/S/E/W ends of the world.  It just blocks your movement (I think).

I also did play now! at an old site with an adventurer today, and then wandered far south until the map offloaded, found a landmark (a frozen pool with 3 willow) and then walked back to the site and returned the axe I had taken from the wagon.  Then I went back to the landmark.  So that seems to be working.  There's an issue with the wilderness of course -- saving changes you make (like lighting a forest fire) isn't going to be possible in all situations because there's just too much of it.  All important locations are still saved square by square, and the rest will be fudged bit by bit (but not now).

The wagons are dropped as close to the center of the map as it can place you.  That's just a convenience for me now.  Currently, you can then walk where you want and dig an entrance, and then use the new gate-changing feature to make everything respect that.  There might be some exploits that arise from positioning the gate somewhere strange to eliminate unwanted migrants etc., but for now it works this way.

As it currently stands, any edge will work for the road -- if you connect any map edge to your depot, you are fine.  I don't think it lets you dig out the edges, so you (probably) can't do something like send a road through the interior of the mountain.  No doubt there will be lots of things I missed though, and we'll just deal with them as they arise.  Or put them on the to-do list, anyway.

[ March 15, 2007: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[mikefictiti0us]

quote:Originally posted by Fenek:
<STRONG>Since you are working on armies (and all that stuff), and where invaders were mentioned, there was always talk about giving them ability to dig. Perhaps it's time for rewalling?</STRONG>

I don't really like the idea of invaders being able to dig into my fortress, ruining my pretty architecture, although it is an interesting concept.

Rather than simply digging through the walls, maybe they could, from outside the fort, tunnel beneath the ground and emerge from holes that they create, similar to how Lizardmen sometimes emerge from wells.

As for rewalling, that doesn't really bother me that much. The real issue that annoys me to no end is the inability to detail and smooth walls that contain ore or gems.

[Black Hound]

quote:I don't really like the idea of invaders being able to dig into my fortress, ruining my pretty architecture, although it is an interesting concept.

Surely it's a concept definitely worth exploring. Considering that all your miners need to hollow out the entire mountain is a few iron picks and their Ultra-Mighty biceps (to say nothing of how most artisans are able to do their jobs without any tools whatsoever =O), why couldn't goblins use trolls or giant moles or some other big tunnelling critters to get at you? It would make sieges a little more interesting, since you would at least have to kill their sappers before hiding in the mountain and flooding the entire world with lava. But it goes without saying that before you let the AI tear up your fortress, you have to give the player the ability to rewall.

quote:I don't think it lets you dig out the edges, so you (probably) can't do something like send a road through the interior of the mountain.

Shouldn't that be an option in some cases, like if you're trading with other dwarven fortresses in the same mountain range?