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[Tacit_Exit]

quote:Originally posted by Zemat:
The point of making rules complex enough yet not totally random is to make it appear totally random to the average player. Yet leaving the possibility for some hardcore players to figure it out so they eventually amaze us all with their constructions.

I'm probably in the 'average' range of players and if I have to spend hours studying the local geology for each room I'm about to dig to determine if it will cave in or not, and quite likely fail, I don't think this game would be fun anymore.

If only extreme hardcore players can work out how to build rooms that don't cave in I won't be going 'oh wow look at that'; I'll have lost interest in playing entirely as each planned room will be a cave in lottery.

That's not to say a complex model can't work and still be fun, we just need clearly defined and reasonably easy to understand 'safe limits' so average players can design fortresses without the frustration. And hardcore players could exceed these 'always safe' limits with their superior knowledge and wow us all.

 

quote:Also, if something differentiates DF from other games in my opinion is it's total disregard for simplicity.

I totally agree but I think there is a difference between 'fun' complexity which multiplies freedom in gameplay directions and adds to the richness of the game, and un-needed layers of complexity which just punish those without masters degrees in maths or the tenacity to constantly rebuild crumbling rooms and still have fun playing.

[ August 12, 2007: Message edited by: Tacit_Exit ]

[ August 12, 2007: Message edited by: Tacit_Exit ]

[Zemat]

quote:Originally posted by Tacit_Exit:
<STRONG>That's not to say a complex model can't work and still be fun, we just need clearly defined and reasonably easy to understand 'safe limits' so average players can design fortresses without the frustration. And hardcore players could exceed these 'always safe' limits with their superior knowledge and wow us all.</STRONG>

That's what I was trying to get at. But I just exaggerated the comment into "only hardcore people should play". Sorry for that.

Also the example I shown was wildly oversimplified in order to show the overall working of it. But with the correct constants and tweaks it should work quite similar to what we are used right now regarding cave-ins. So average players should be able to build the same stuff they have always have done. That's not to say that my model is useful or even correct. After all it was just a quick suggestion. It would make me very happy if Toady got some inspiration or help from what I say, just as anybody who has made a suggestion before would feel, but that doesn't mean I expect my posts to be read nor that I would fell bad if they weren't.

Actually my original idea was to suggest a simple model for cave-ins that didn't rely on excessive calculations or searches in order to validate the stability of a structure. That's why it's too local. But again, it was meant as an example of how the problem could be solved without doing time-consuming searches.

[ August 12, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

[Tacit_Exit]

Hehe, I think seeing all those constants and variables in your post just brought out an attack of mathophobia here.

I'll try to keep the twitching to a minimum in future  

[Greiger]

I'm no expert at programming or anything but maybe a happy medium could be brought about.

I'm thinking something like th 6x6 safe rooms thing, if you don't exceed a baseline size limit you don't have to worry at all, but as soon as you dig out a 7x7 area it starts making the fancy expert player spreadsheet of calculations stuff to determine weather a place will collapse or not.  

Possibly with good miners, strong materials, skill, or a combination of those you could still have a 0% chance of a cave in.  This would allow average Joe players the ability to still safely make areas without worrying about collapse, and allow the more experienced players the ability to make large or complex areas without having to worry about collapse due to highly skilled miners or stratigic use of good materials.

The safe area would probably have to be tweaked a little bit if there are more factors than just room size now, but it shouldn't be too hard to find the scenarios where your obviously safe doing this without worrying. Probly things like simple stalagmites would be perfectly safe but as son as you start giving them odd shapes or doing other weird things the collapse calculator begins taking notice.

I figure this would keep the new players interested while letting the artistic math wiz ones still amaze people.

Please pardon the run ons and stuff. It's 1:35 in the morning here and I'm out of Dr. Pepper.

[Zemat]

quote:Originally posted by gloogorshkin:
<STRONG>
At this point, the mines are cleared and the single support that was holding everything up is brought down (this can be an actual support, or a pillar that you leave standing) and everybody gets out.

Once your other military guys know that you've successfully undermined the enemy's operations, they go in to clean up and do whatever you need them to do.</STRONG>

Woah, this is a neat idea. Didn't read it the first time around. The only thing is that this would require the cave in to trigger as soon as the dwarves remove the crucial pillar. But, if cave-ins act as in the current version, the cave-in won't happen fast enough. The invading armies could have cleared the space by the time the cave-in happens. Maybe if you link the pillar to a mechanism as a trap and set up the whole area before any siege comes so that the cave-in happens at the star of the siege. Add some magma pits below the cave-traps to spice things up.  

[TheSpaceMan]

Acording to leave calculations to areas bigger then 6x6 might be a smart idea. This could act like a LOD:ing mechanism för the cavein, only making larger calucluations on the tiles involved with that room.

I agree that mining tunnels and building rooms shouldn't be 100% realistic, but still as stated before, more complex hollow outs/rooms should be possible in a "know how" fasion

[Leerok the Lacerta]

quote: adding a density to every object and material in the game as a foundation

I look forward to creating my own continents.

[LSTAR]

We're missing one key point here, people: Dwarf miners aren't idiots!
If you look at real world miners, nobody just takes a pick axe and starts digging.
No, they add supports in and reinforce the rock as they dig! This strengthening process could be handled automatically and (for the time being, until Toady has an opportunity to revise it) the game could simply assume that every tunnel and chamber a player builds has been made safe by the miners.
I know this won't satisfy the real hard nuts out there, but it's a conceivable
solution for now.

[Greiger]

But dwarves are idiots.  Just light one on fire and see how the fortress reacts!  

I do kinda agree with the previous statement though.  It would probably take a long time for a good system to be put in place. Possibly for now just have the collapse system that has already been put in place a toggle in the init file. That way if you want to use it you can, if you want to wait til a better system is in place just turn gravity off.  

I could honestly live with a bare bones system until it gets improved. People who can't can just experiment with floating platforms and things until it does.  I would actually kind of look forward to seeing people make floating fortresses and stuff even if they would fall apart the moment gravity is turned back on.

[Gaulgath]

quote:...just turn gravity off.

Tun Dastot, Miner, cancels dig: can not reach floor.

[Xgamer4]

Yeah, I kinda agree with the "no cave-ins for now" crowd. Though if it was toggleable that would make Succession games interesting.

"Oops. First try: Entire fortress collapses because I play with gravity on. *restart*"

[axus]

What is the density of a dwarf?  Soon we will find out!

[martn1]

First i want to say, that DF is a great game.
It's the first ascii-style game i ever played and
it's like reading a book  ,
but why can't i designate areas for hauling tasks?
Like chopping trees is handled or mining.
It would be easy to pick up or ignore certain items/areas.

Martin

[Gaulgath]

That will all be in the next version.  

[Rictus]

Man, that was like some kind of funky haiku typing style Martn has there