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[Faces of Mu]

Hmmm. Water moving diagonally = intimidating. Possibility of waterwheels = yay!

I am really looking forward to the idea of advanced water mechanics later in the game. As for now, sweet dreams re: next DF release.

[Misterstone]

You all realize of course that the whole floodgate/mining issue would be resolved if there were explosive charges?

[Aquillion]

quote:Originally posted by Zaratustra:
<STRONG>1) install floodgate
2) open floodgate
3) dig wall
4) wait for dwarf to pass floodgate
5) close floodgate</STRONG>

The problem with this is that there's no way to force your dwarves to pull a lever _now._  All jobs in Dwarf Fortress carry a hidden tagline of "eventually."  Eventually doesn't work in this case...  your dwarf will probably drown before anyone reaches the switch (and if you don't set it up intelligently, with multiple floodgates, everyone else will drown, too.)

[Zemat]

Other solution:

code:

###### #############===
###### A############===
######1#############===
###### B############===
###### #############===
<-closed       2  @%===
####################===

A = switch
B = switch
1 = floodgate linked to switch A
2 = floodgate linked to switch B
# = wall
"<-closed" means that there's no way out of that space other than floodgate 1.

Step 1: Build floodgates 1 and 2, switches A and B and link them as mentioned above.
Step 2: Get a dwarf beyond gate 1 and distract him doing something while some other dwarf closes 1 after him.
Step 3: Make the dwarf create the hole to the river.
Step 4: Give the order to pull the trigger B. Since no other dwarf can access the trigger other than the dwarf beyond gate 1 and he has nothing better to do he'll comply quickly.
Step 5: After 2 is closed and the leaked water evaporated give the order to open gate 1.

The same thing can be done using a door instead of floodgate 1 and manually sealing it when opening the hole.

[ July 29, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

[huhu]

Toady One,

If you sometime in the future find yourself with a lot of free time, wondering what to put in DF, I suggest a micromanagement tool to bypass certain AI situations.

This tool would have at least an option to order a dwarf to cancel whatever they're doing and executing a custom order instead.

The custom order doesn't need much else but copying the labor list available for each dwarf. By selecting one from there (ie. Stone hauling) a second menu will pop up similar to the custom plot configuration menu with all the different stone types. From there you can select what material types to include or exclude, and after selecting that the normal fort screen could return with a prompt to select target stone from all the stones lying around the fort (+/- will do fine). Using filter with stone type would cut down a lot of scrolling there. If this custom order could be picked through the 'v' menu, or otherwise selecting the target dwarf first, it could also show the distance-to-dwarf while picking the target item/construction site.

Not so user-friendly, but I can think of several moments where I'd give my favorite miner's left arm for a tool like this. It's just a screwdriver to use in panic situations. In addition to jobs, it should include an equip command with which target equipment could be selected similarly.

[Boogey]

quote:Originally posted by huhu:
I suggest a micromanagement tool to bypass certain AI situations.

That has the bad side of changing it from "dwarfs choose independently" into a god game, where you directly can control your dwarfs. What about just a "job queue" for dwarfs from which you could remove/prioritize some jobs? Overall job queue of 3-5 jobs for each dwarf would make dwarfs make more sense..

[Tacit_Exit]

Ya I gotta say I don't think introducing direct control like that would be good for the game.

Atm the dwarves act like minions with their own volition; sure you can indirectly influence their actions thru labor preferences and the like but there is no direct control and thats the way it should remain imo.

I much prefer the way it is now where you build a home for your 'pets' and alternately delight/tear your hair out at how they interact with it.

[huhu]

I'm talking about a situation where strategically placed stones resulting from digging prevent building a workshop, or when you have to really get down to planning on how to equip some item on a specific dwarf.

Maybe someday a good solution for this will be available in the game normally through AI upgrades - In the meanwhile a tool like this that would take only a little time to implement (and no subsequent upgrades) and could save some headaches of the AI's current shortcomings.

It should be difficult and bothersome to use, so that it would only really be considered in extreme, hair-tearing situations.

[ July 29, 2007: Message edited by: huhu ]

[ July 29, 2007: Message edited by: huhu ]

[Abyssal Squid]

I'm not too worried about setting up floodgates without dwarves dying.  Not only is water slow enough that even a cripple could outrun it (unless that has changed since the videos), you can also dig channels from above, without ever entering them.

code:

##########.###~~~
##########.###~~~
########>...ò☺~~~ _=channel
<- farm_____X!~~~ !=channel being dug
##############~~~
##############~~~
                  
##############~~~
##############~~~
########<#####~~~
............X!~~~
##############~~~
##############~~~

Not to mention you could always build pumps, which wouldn't even require going below water level.

[ July 29, 2007: Message edited by: Abyssal Squid ]

[Exasperation]

I thought of a possible solution for the problem of installing floodgates into already flooded squares.  It relies on two assumptions.
Assumption 1) Squares containing open floodgates can contain liquids (instead of liquids just disappearing on one side and reappearing on another).
Assumption 2) There is a mechanism by which liquids are pushed out of a floodgate when it closes.

If these are correct, then having floodgate installation act as a combination of creating an open floodgate and then automatically closing it should work.

[TheSpaceMan]

The best solution at the moment imho is to wait for the release and see what happens.

[Aquillion]

quote:Originally posted by Tacit_Exit:
<STRONG>Ya I gotta say I don't think introducing direct control like that would be good for the game.</STRONG>

This actually worked all right, though, in Dungeon Keeper.  You could micromanage things (carry monsters to where you needed something done, or even possess them to do it yourself), but except in the most urgent cases it was rarely worth your time.

And Zemat, your solution won't work.  The problem is that the game doesn't "know" that only that one dwarf can reach the switch--it'll try to give it to other dwarves, they'll get confused and cancel, and before it can all be worked out the trapped dwarf will have died.

[ July 29, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Baneslave]

quote:Originally posted by Abyssal Squid:
[QB]I'm not too worried about setting up floodgates without dwarves dying.  Not only is water slow enough that even a cripple could outrun it (unless that has changed since the videos)...

Well, you know that Toady has special developement tool (program, thing, cheat, whatever), which allows him to put every creature's speed to 1. This makes them superfast, so we can't be too sure how fast water or dwarwes are in videos.

[Zemat]

quote:Originally posted by Aquillion:
<STRONG>The problem is that the game doesn't "know" that only that one dwarf can reach the switch--it'll try to give it to other dwarves, they'll get confused and cancel, and before it can all be worked out the trapped dwarf will have died.</STRONG>

I don't know about the next version. But in the current version I have many times left a dwarf trapped inside in a room with a single switch and since the dwarf can do nothing else he'll pull the switch whenever I command it (unless he 's asleep, possessed or something worse). From watching the game I think the game looks for whoever can do the task by first validating he/she can reach the task place. And only cancels whenever it exhausts all options. Then it could be canceled only if something happens to the dwarf that has already been assigned to it.

[ July 29, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

[Silveron]

quote:Originally posted by Baneslave:
<STRONG>

Well, you know that Toady has special developement tool (program, thing, cheat, whatever), which allows him to put every creature's speed to 1. This makes them superfast, so we can't be too sure how fast water or dwarwes are in videos.</STRONG>

We all have that power as well. Just a matter of knowing where to subract a few 0's in the raws.   Though... it makes things far too easy imo.