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[Maximum Spin]

I'll say this though. A single Poison Mafioso and a single Primer Mafioso, not teamed, possibly one an ally, makes some sense. Whatever's happening doesn't clearly look very coordinated.

[Vector]

Could also be teamed without a chat. Webadict and I were talking about that possibility after last round.

[webadict]

I'm gonna take the risk and assume Roden is solo scum.
And I'm going to assume that... we, at best, have two solo scum (Either 2 unteamed Mafia, or Mafia and Mafia-Ally.) But, it also possible we have one really powerful scum.

How? I blocked Roden last night and Vector claims to be poisoned. You also seemed ASSURED of poison's existence on D2 when there was no evidence of it. If Vector's claim is the truth then it's like you knew, impressive!

Toony. You are retroactively trying to find evidence when other, more simple (and incredibly obvious), explanations work. Like this: I was convinced of poison's existence because I believed that Vector was Town. I thought Vector was Town because NJW2000 confirmed my action and target (thus making NJW2000 Town) and Vector was targeted by Prime. Why would Vector lie about that if I think Vector is Town? I will cherish this moment between us. This is the moment where you have a choice: You can choose to waste your Day 3 like you wasted your Day 2 trying to frame me for being scum, OR you can look at what I presented: Factual arguments, logical deductions, processes of eliminations; and realize that removing you was the correct option, especially since you didn't really do anything to help narrow it down.

Now, to what you said that actually matters.

Three possibilities that rely on knowing how the scum work:

1.) These abilities are a mix of Day and Night abilities. There's no reason to believe that the Poison is the result of an action that was done during the Night. It could just as well have occurred during the Day. The one thing we can confirm if NJW2000 is Town is that the Prime happened at Night, but perhaps the Poison is a Day action?
2.) These abilities are automatic. Perhaps the Poison was an automatic ability that cannot be roleblocked. If it's automatic, there might be limitations to its usage.
3.) Some abilities are immune to roleblocks. This seems unlikely, as it would completely negate the ability, but I'm mentioning it for posterity. If NJW2000 is not scum, then it's possible they were targeted by Poison last Night, and Vector was targeted by Prime as well. This could infer that the Poison ability is immune to roleblocks, but the Prime is not. Would you necessarily put it past FoU to put in a essentially useless power like that?
And this is all in addition to someone else mucking up the whole game.

Basically, taking the relative power curve based on role claim:
TricMagic is a Fruit Vendor (or whatever he is). This is a low power role.
EuchreJack is an Investigator. This is a low power role.
I am an Investigative Student. This is a low power role.
You are a Vengeful Roleblocker. This is a low power role.
Vector is a 2-Shot Poison Doctor. This is a medium-low power role.
Roden is a Delayer. This is a medium power role.
NJW2000 is a Voyeur. This is a high power role.
Maximum Spin is a Arsonist Jack of All Trades. This is a very high power role.

I'm not making any heads or tails of this.

[ToonyMan]

Okay sure, but if the mafia team can't communicate the Poisoner Mafia still shouldn't target Vector N2 who everyone learned was Primed on D2. Seems like a straight up bad play to overlap like that...except if the Poisoner Mafia was not sure of a safe target besides Vector who they knew could not be the other mafia. Still seems kind of fishy though.

[ToonyMan]

Could also be teamed without a chat. Webadict and I were talking about that possibility after last round.

I'm refering to this in my previous post.

@Webadict:
Screw you. I tried to consider everything on D2. You railroaded me like a fucking moron even when I still considered other players to vote like Max or Roden. My thoughts and opinions showed development and growth. You ranted about how I was scum and we need to watch out for nonexistent third parties. I didn't even want to play anymore at the end of D2 because of how much you unjustifiably shitted on me. And then Max comes in right at the end of day like an angel, taking the mafia by surprise with "hey I'm going to res town". Even if mafia tried to kill Max that would eliminate one of the suspicious players, not that mafia appear to be able to actively kill at night, so they were fucked either way. I'm so utterly fucking convinced you wouldn't be this fucking bad. And calling me bad means fucking shit to me after the bullshit I had to read from you on D2.

Anyway, your poison reasoning is shit because it's clearly something mafia are doing and we could spin in circles forever not doing anything. Either Vector is lying or Jack is lying. Boom. If Vector is lying then they're with NJW. If Jack is lying they're with Web. Just like I was fucking saying that it comes down to one of NJW/Web being mafia when Tric flipped town. And guess what? Tric suspected Web! Like I said on D2 this mechanical stuff is nice when town are making claims, but we can't get caught in the bullshit of how the fuck mafia work since we can't say for sure until the game is over. Look at Round 2 for a good example of this.

I think what I'm going to do tomorrow is fit together everyone's claims on N1 and N2 and then assume two people are mafia for each scenario and see how that looks. The objective is to see which players fit the best as liars, since town players would be telling the truth with their results. Roden and NJW haven't claimed for today, but they should be around by the time I do this tomorrow. I was also consider player's behavior and voting patterns.

[ToonyMan]

The biggest nail in the coffin for no scumchat mafia is that I've seen no hint of hidden messages in anybody's post. There's no secret flags or clues anywhere from what I've seen unless someone has any evidence of that. I was on the eye for that since it fucked me over last round.

[Maximum Spin]

Okay sure, but if the mafia team can't communicate the Poisoner Mafia still shouldn't target Vector N2 who everyone learned was Primed on D2. Seems like a straight up bad play to overlap like that...except if the Poisoner Mafia was not sure of a safe target besides Vector who they knew could not be the other mafia. Still seems kind of fishy though.

Poisoner could plausibly believe EuchreJack's case that the primer has no ignite and was relying on surprise mines, making the known prime on Vector useless. Alternatively, that case could be true and the poisoner knows it.
I'm not saying I think that's very likely or anything.

Speaking of which, should I just opt not to use my poison doctor power tonight?

Webadict: I can buy a day poisoner, but it seems unlikely to me that Fallacy would have made them indistinguishable, so Vector should probably confirm whether the poisoning was reported at eod (or sooner) or eon.

While I could buy a potential autopoison, it doesn't appear to operate on any of the obvious triggers unless it is Jack or NJW (or you if you lied about targeting me in some to me seemingly unlikely way) and poisons the target (or hypothetically the target's target if the poisoner targeted the other), in which case it is effectively the same calculus as a poison action. Nobody else could have targeted Vector, so it couldn't be target or target's target, and Vector targeted nobody, so it couldn't be a backlash. I guess it could be wholly or partly random or otherwise excessively weird, but I'm still looking for horses and not zebras, even if it IS a Fallacy game. Yes, if it bypasses roleblocks, Roden could have done it, I guess, but we don't need to posit automatic for that. If anything, if it's targettable, it being automatic feels weirder: "Your target will be poisoned even if you do not actually reach your target"? An automatic that can't be roleblocked seems most likely to trigger as a backlash or uncontrollable random thing. I'm not ruling that out, sure, but in the first case Vector is lying about targeting nobody, and in the second case it's completely useless information and also awful.

A roleblock-breakthrough ability on Roden of any kind, active or passive, just sounds like a bad setup. But look, how about this. If it's solo Roden, alternatingly priming and poisoning or something, we can lynch somebody else today and Roden tomorrow.

By the way, Toonyman, without giving anything away, how much mechanical information did you get about the correlates of your resurrection? It wasn't just a resurrection.

[ToonyMan]

Not sure, I don't see anything else besides being alive again. If it's important that mafia don't know we can stay hush on it.

[Maximum Spin]

I see. I would've loved if you'd been told. Yeah, better to keep mum.

[Maximum Spin]

All right, let me break it down.

Roden, if you're town, then, if Vector dies at day end, I want you to delay Euchrejack. If Vector does not die, delay Vector or NJW, taster's choice.

We're going to lynch webadict. If web flips town, and Vector dies, we can believe weird zebra theories about solo Roden. Otherwise, we proceed logically.

I am open to argument for swapping the roles of Euchrejack and webadict in this process, but I'm pretty sure either way it's the best shot. I actually have a theory that Euchrejack might be the most dangerous game, but it doesn't obviously seem to matter, and Jack/anyone but web seems less likely to me than web/anyone but Jack.

[EuchreJack]

I think people are unclear as to the two opposing theories of Vector is Scum versus Jack is Scum.

The worst case scenario with Vector/NJW as the scum team is game over if one of them is not lynched.  Is that the case if I or Web are scum and they are lynched?

The "safe" option is to lynch Vector or NJW.  Do the math.  Count the Primes.

Vector says I poisoned them, Web KNEW the correct name of Max's Night 1 power and thus must have been truthful about visiting Max unless Max is scum, and NJW said that both me AND Web visited Vector on Night 1.  We could NOT have primed anyone other than Vector, unless you believe in multi-targeting.

How? I blocked Roden last night and Vector claims to be poisoned. You also seemed ASSURED of poison's existence on D2 when there was no evidence of it. If Vector's claim is the truth then it's like you knew, impressive!

Well, both Vector and I agreed poison existed D1. That isn't a reason to be "ASSURED", but it's definitely "evidence".

The poisoner knows poison exists.  Recall last game where the claimed Cop Gunsmith was actually mafia?  FOU doesn't repeat roles in the way that both you and Vector are claiming.  They're too similar.

OK. I am going to die at EOD and I frankly don't give a shit if people vote me out or not, because I'm already dead. In fact, voting for me is effectively voting for No Launch.

I did lie about my role. I'm a 2-shot poison doctor.

Although I already know Vector is scum, unless someone can explain to me mechanically how mafia could be pitting us against each other like this, I think everyone else should think about this claim.

Vector says they are 2-shot poison doctor.
Vector claimed to protect NJW2000 from poison N1.
Vector claims to have not used their poison doctor N2.

Oh, and we're supposed to believe that Vector was poisoned and is content with that.  Rather than being royally pissed.

@Vector: If I am scum, who is my scum buddy?  You need to answer this.  According to you, you won't be around to help EOD, so you should be helping now.

[EuchreJack]

@NJW: What are your voyeur results?

@Web: Stop insulting Toonyman.  It keeps his brain from working good.  Be really nice and considerate to poor Toonyman.  Hell, butter his ego a bit. 
We need his brain to be working on the problem rather than on getting you lynched because you are playing Mr. Ass.

[EuchreJack]

Unofficial Day 3 votecounts
    ToonyMan (0):
    Roden (0):
    EuchreJack (1): Vector
    NJW2000 (0):
    Vector (1): EuchreJack
    webadict (2): Toonyman, Maximum Spin
    Maximum Spin (0):

    No Execution (0):
    Not Voting (3): Roden, NJW2000, webadict
    4 to hammer.


Day 3 has begun, and will end 4 PM Monday, Central/Forum time, or on a hammer.

[EuchreJack]

Well, there is a flaw in my theory.  NJW & Vector could hammer Web for the win.
But having been partners with Vector in the past, I can tell you that Vector can disappear for long periods of time.  So its not proof by any means.
@Maximum Spin: Would you mind unvoting Web for now?

[Maximum Spin]

Web KNEW the correct name of Max's Night 1 power and thus must have been truthful about visiting Max unless Max is scum,

So? Maybe you knew it and told him.
I mean, Web's getting into the wild theories, here's a perfectly conceivable one: Both members of a Web and Jack team could have Prodigious Study. Oh, but Fallacy never does such a thing, they claim. It's not like he's capable of making a choice to do something unusual.

The worst case scenario with Vector/NJW as the scum team is game over if one of them is not lynched.  Is that the case if I or Web are scum and they are lynched?

I don't understand why you think this is necessarily the case, but if we follow my plan, even if that is the case, we have a 50% chance of stopping it, and if one has to prime and the other ignite, as seems likely, we have a 50% chance of preventing the ignition completely and a 50% chance of preventing a prime.

I'll unvote for now, though, fine.