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[NJW2000]

Alternatively, it could just be a mafia strongman. Which would be annoying as it doesn't let us thin out the possibilities, but does suggest the unlikely Tric/Vec scumteam, as with town!Toony there's some possibility of a follow-the-cop type situation and corresponding counter powers.

This is going to take some pretty careful rereading of the thread, I suspect. In the meantime, I would like to see Toony claim. Any useful cop results?

[NJW2000]

Actually nvm, Vec most likely can't be scum because:

 scum!Vector -> scum!Tric
 scum!Vector -> either scum!Toony, because of the gunsmith cop result N1 (3 mafia not possible)
                        or one mafia with a kill and one without (unlikely)
                        or Vec gave away a gun N1, which would entail collusion with Webadict, which makes no sense because they shot him

Ok. Down to three...

@Roden: How exactly does a repel work? It doesn't seem to be on the mafiascum wiki.

[ToonyMan]

Hi, just popping in to say that I'm here and ready to claim, although I agree that Toony and Roden should claim before me.

I attempted to check NJW but my action failed.

[ToonyMan]

Let me get this straight:

1. Web had NJW deflect him and then NJW chose Toony
2. Web had Roden target Tric who picked Repel on NJW
3. Web had Vector target Roden who gave them a 50% watch

Alternatively, it could just be a mafia strongman. Which would be annoying as it doesn't let us thin out the possibilities, but does suggest the unlikely Tric/Vec scumteam, as with town!Toony there's some possibility of a follow-the-cop type situation and corresponding counter powers.

True. This also follows Vector not trusting Webadict.

[ToonyMan]

Likelihoods:

Vector/Tric - possible
Vector/Roden - not possible
Vector/NJW - not possible

Tric/Roden - possible
Tric/NJW - unlikely

Roden/NJW - possible

I have to decide between voting Tric or Roden.

[TricMagic]

To note, everyone needs to be telling the truth here.

One possibility is that Roden Repelled Webadict. As in bounced the ability back onto NJW, which would have made you give a self-result. Which isn't actually possible.

In this scenario, the team could be Vecter/Roden. As Roden ended up jailing Max. Who claimed action results first, web/spin or Roden?

For an NJW/Roden team, it's much simpler. Roden interfered with your result, then NJW killed webadict.

A Toony/Roden team is impossible, cause NJW would be telling the truth and the kill would have just bounced back to Toony. Roden's repel would have done that too.

One thing to note from my side, in all teamups Roden is Mafia. He's also literally the only interference role that web didn't claim true. Mafia-allies know who the mafia is, but the mafia don't.

I wanted you to claim last for a reason Roden, and that was I was wondering which of the three were your partner. And no one mentioned popcorn, which makes me think that's a scumslip. Your roleflip will reveal what the truth is, as the only way for webadict to die requires you to be mafia or them to have a strongarm.

Web's roleflip doesn't lie... Let me reread that.
(Day) Command: You decide in advance what the Night-action primary targets of the players under your command must be. Each player affected by Authority will be made aware of your choice for them when the Night starts. (If a Mafia player is tied to your Authority, usage of their factional ability is exempt from this requirement. Furthermore, the players affected by Authority can still choose to take no action.)

Not their role ability.. Or the gun. So in this case my argument is false. Mafia can't deviate from their chosen actions. Going to need to look at nightclaims on day 2 more closely.

[NJW2000]

A Toony/Roden team is impossible, cause NJW would be telling the truth and the kill would have just bounced back to Toony. Roden's repel would have done that too.

A Roden/Toony team could have killed if they had a mafia strongman.

If that's the case, Roden did as he claimed and Toony made the kill, most likely. Although perhaps it would be weird for Roden not to pretend to have interfered with Toony's action in some way.

You're right that Roden couldn't have interfered with me, though, given Web was giving him orders and Web probably isn't twisted enough to block his own protection. Huh. Going to have to readjust my convictions. I really thought things would be clear by now, but nope.

[TricMagic]

Yarrr... I be a One-shot Roleblocker Captain. Me crew consists of a Jailer... Nah, I'll let you claim as ye want, but this be a lie (Roden, the ship "doctor"), a 50% Inventor (Vector, me best cannoneer), and a Deflector (NJW2000, me first mate).

I find this funny for some reason. Roden, one question, why didn't you say anything yesterday about this?

If TricMagic is lying, it's TricMagic and one of ToonyMan or Maximum Spin.
If Maximum Spin is Bulletproof, Roden is no longer clear.MS is a Commuter.
Vector and Maximum Spin are a possible pairing. Debunked hard, but Vector was the one to hammer. Roden/Vector? Web wouldn't have died if web was lying about targeting himself for Vector's invention.
If NJW2000 is lying, they're fucking galaxy brain Mafia, and we lose. Meh.
It's possible Maximum Spin was roleblocked by Roden. I think thier role does that? This comes after, and really should have been a big sign something was up. But the day ended way too quick.

So, if I accept Tric is Town, which is very likely, then the Mafia team is either Vector and Maximum Spin OR ToonyMan and one of TricMagic/NJW2000/Roden. Technically, Tric can be Mafia with pretty much anyone, but that's a tough pill to swallow.

If Vector/MS, then either MS did the kill and got blocked, or Vector did the kill and targeted me (They wouldn't do that, would they??? )

If ToonyMan is Mafia, then... A lot of factors are unsure.
If Roden is Mafia, then who the fuck is their partner?? It has to be ToonyMan... or like, maybe NJW2000??

We could vote out one of Vector or Max to test them and then go into tomorrow. Max hasn't claimed, so that lends credit to them being scum, and Vector's lack of presence is also scummy. Additionally, me being attacked would make sense from their perspective because I soft-claimed to Vector yesterday, and they would've picked up on that, so their goal was to kill the Captain and remove all the power from Town.

I'm pretty sure that's what happened... Which would be really unfortunate if true, for so many reasons.

On this bit. I am pretty sure we can rule out Vector completely in this scenario. Web wouldn't have the needed info on his own. And if he did, I doubt he would have died.

So, under no circumstances is Vector not Town. Web didn't know what interference Roden had. We do need Vector's claim though.

So, in this circumstance it's either Toony, NJW, or Roden.

... Roden repelled me. Which would have bounced a gunshot right back at Web. Ugh... Would deflection shift it to Toony, or would it have just.
What a tangled mess.

[TricMagic]

Hold It!

Roden, you never posted Day 2! As a result, we don't know who you targeted night 1. Web never let it slip either. We just assumed you blocked the kill/jailkept Maxspin.

[NJW2000]

Tric - please stay off red text until everyone's certain on their choice.

Let's remember Toony and Vector were on the last lolhammer. I don't think the two of them can be scum but if Vector's town they hammered accidentally yesterday, so we really can't rely on them not to hand the game over with a careless vote. I don't entirely trust you or toony here, and I don't think you trust Toony or me, so you should unvote. Silly as this game has been, an opportunistic hammer would be a terrible ending.


Also, while I still have a fairly strong belief he's scum, Roden posted D2. Not a lot, but something. So no quick answer there, sadly.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=128804;area=showposts;start=0

[TricMagic]

Tric - please stay off red text until everyone's certain on their choice.

Let's remember Toony and Vector were on the last lolhammer. I don't think the two of them can be scum but if Vector's town they hammered accidentally yesterday, so we really can't rely on them not to hand the game over with a careless vote. I don't entirely trust you or toony here, and I don't think you trust Toony or me, so you should unvote. Silly as this game has been, an opportunistic hammer would be a terrible ending.


Also, while I still have a fairly strong belief he's scum, Roden posted D2. Not a lot, but something. So no quick answer there, sadly.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=128804;area=showposts;start=0

That was glowtext, not redtext. Also I was waiting for him to point that out, not for you to defend him.

You also didn't even bother to quote it.

Wait, no, the post  below the one I found does say it. Dam.

I did use glowtext rather than redtext though. So that shouldn't count, it was just emphasis.

[TricMagic]

Thought I had something, but we'll still waiting for Vector's claim here.

[NJW2000]

Oh, fair enough. I just saw red and immediately went into panic mode.

[Roden]

Yarrr... I be a One-shot Roleblocker Captain. Me crew consists of a Jailer... Nah, I'll let you claim as ye want, but this be a lie (Roden, the ship "doctor"), a 50% Inventor (Vector, me best cannoneer), and a Deflector (NJW2000, me first mate).

I find this funny for some reason. Roden, one question, why didn't you say anything yesterday about this?

I did.

Web knows my role name and has a general understanding of what it is. He's not saying it because it would only give the mafia team more information.

___

So, we have a bit of a problem here, Tric and Vector. Toony and NJW both think I'm scum. They haven't really given a reason as to why I'm scum, but alright, they both suspect me.

...Why don't they suspect each other? They both have each other as a possible pairing with me, but they aren't actually considering that I could be town and the other the true scum. We've had two days in a row where we thought the scum team was obvious, but then turned out to be wrong, yet they both think third time's the charm and want to vote who they think is the obvious choice again?

Another problem with this theory that I'm scum is that killing Web is non-sensical from my point of view. You can see that I had a clear progression in my posts where I went from not trusting Web and voting him, to getting to the point where I claimed that not protecting Web would be scummy. Why would I kill him if I trusted him? Furthermore, why would I kill him at all if he's the Captain? If he dies and he's town, I lose my abilities. If he's scum, I keep my abilities but lose an ally. It's a lose-lose scenario for me, I have zero reason to ever kill him, especially since it's clear that I did trust him.

Now, look at what NJW and Toony are claiming. NJW says he Deflected Web onto Toony, yet Web still died. We know his night action claim is false now, because even if a Strongman were in the game it doesn't get around redirection according to the wiki. So how did Web die? Maybe I role blocked NJW?

...Except Toony already claimed his action failed when trying to investigate NJW. And we know Web lied about being a Roleblocker because it wasn't in his flip.

Tric could NOT have affected NJW because of my Repel.

Vector could NOT have affected either Toony or NJW since they are a confirmed Inventor and I'm claiming I received a gift, thus their night action is accounted for.

So why did Toony's and NJW's night actions not work? And why don't they suspect each other?

Likelihoods:

Vector/Tric - possible
Vector/Roden - not possible
Vector/NJW - not possible

Tric/Roden - possible
Tric/NJW - unlikely

Roden/NJW - possible

I have to decide between voting Tric or Roden.

This especially looks awful, seeing as Toony had the most to gain from disabling all of the remaining roles in the game if he'd happened to be town.

[TricMagic]

... Right, let's look at things through another lens.

At the moment, we think there are two mafia and 1 mafia ally. But what would happen then?

Parity, JOAT, Bodyguard, Deflector, Gunsmith, Inventor, Captain, Commuter.
Tric, Roden, Jack, NJW, Toony, Vector, Web, Max.

If we split it, we can conclude the Bodyguard would be useless in this scenario of 3 scum. Likewise, Gunsmith, Parity, and Inventor are also useless to town N1. Deflector likewise has an issue. And both JOAT and Deflector were under control of an ally. Therefore we would normally lose on D2, having started on MYLO. The only town role that can prevent a kill is Commuter.

So, what if it isn't true? The Two Mafia and 1 Ally don't actually exist. Rather, web's actions can lead to a conclusion that there is only 1 Mafia. Redirecting things into Max would be a good test and could prove to setup a lynch if it failed. But it's possible Mafia don't have a normal kill. But no, the only one who could have created a gun would be Vector, and his action is accounted for. So for this to be TRUE, Mafia would need a Frame action.

So Vector/? would have targeted Webadict, which bounced their framejob onto Maxspin. But his role flipped Town. -/\-

Therefore, there is no circumstance that Vector would by Mafia.

3 Suspects

Roden, the JOAT with only 3 abilities. Toony, the Man with a failed result. and NJW, the Deflector who protected Web.

Roden+NJW. Roden would have blocked Toony, while Toony did the kill.
Roden+Toony: Repel(an unknown ability no longer). would have been used on Webadict, reflecting the deflection target onto NJW. Toony then did the kill, and claimed failed result. This one would have a flaw in how actions resolved.
Toony+NJW: Kill Webadict, then set up falseclaims. Without any trackers, they would be clear.
Vector+NJW: Not possible. Toony's result wouldn't fail.
Vector+Toony: Also not possible. The Kill would have been deflected.

N1 Vector... If web lied about what he ordered vector to do, Web wouldn't have died. If Vector did give a gun to web, it would have bounced back at him. This might bypass deflection, but unlikely. And Vector would have to give one to a wildcard in the first place.
Self-framing as a mafia ability is also a bit scuffed.


So right now, these 3 possibilities exist if there are two mafia. If there is but 1, it would be NJW outside of Vector being a godfather type.

Ironically, that leads back to only one possible outcome for today, lynching Roden. His flip gives us all the information we need to crack things. Unless of course the pairing is Toony+NJW, but we can't crack that pairing mechanically.