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[ToonyMan]

While it appears true that Tric has a new gun, I can't fully confirm that is the case because there are certain town roles that I will always get a guilty result on, such as cops. All I can say is that Vector was clean on N1 and that Tric was loaded on N3.

And as has been proven earlier today with the lack of quickhammer, Tric is not mafia. There was that 1% possibility in my mind so I guess I'm glad that has been disproven while I was away.

[ToonyMan]

Let me add more to that:

Tric slammed down their cop claim D1 right after I did. Their entire play in this game has been their town meta. I became convinced from D1 alone which I feel confident I can get most of the time. I don't think Tric is clever enough to invent this "parity cop" business within hours of the round starting. When I ended up inspecting them last night the second last thought in my mind was "shit Tric was mafia all along!!".

[Vector]

While it appears true that Tric has a new gun, I can't fully confirm that is the case because there are certain town roles that I will always get a guilty result on, such as cops. All I can say is that Vector was clean on N1 and that Tric was loaded on N3.

OK, I understand now. Thank you.

[NJW2000]

Replies to Toony

The game would have auto-ended if there were two mafia, there's only four people left.

Obviously not, Vector can give themselves guns and I have a deflect, so if it was Vector and I against you and Tric, we could have potentially done something. It was perfectly reasonable not to expect the game to end while we still had a chance to win. FoU isn't going to break that convention.

Your mafiakill is only on even-numbered nights, isn't it? We have no reason to believe a kill happened on N1 or N3.

6 town vs a mafia and a mafia ally, where the mafia kill is only on even numbered nights? What kind of nonsense is this? FoU gives some weird kill restrictions but that really takes the cake. Mafia would be absolutely nerfed to the ground if that were the case.

And the mafiakill must be special like multi-tasking, as Roden targeted you with Repel or Rolestop instead which caused my action to fail, or you have a second ability that is a part of your factional kill. This information would not show up on Webadict's captain flip.

How would Roden's targeting me with repel or rolestop cause your action to fail?

Also, what on earth do you mean "repel or rolestop"? Is this what your peripatetic park ponderings have got you - the belief that Roden lied for no reason as town? Town read the thread, they don't just cast about for any old hypothesis.

Roden flipped town, so we can trust that he used the repel:

Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.

It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.

So... Tric not being able to interact with me is why your action failed? This is going to be interesting.

(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.

If you think it's because I somehow multitasked and redirected the deflect so you were repulsed from me, that entails Web chose to let me choose who Roden's target was, so completely gave up any control at all over the repel. Web just wanted a random repel to happen? And gave up a self-defensive deflection to make it happen? Why? What's the logic there?

While it appears true that Tric has a new gun, I can't fully confirm that is the case because there are certain town roles that I will always get a guilty result on, such as cops. All I can say is that Vector was clean on N1 and that Tric was loaded on N3.

Why will you always get a guilty result on cops? FoU gave my ability an unusual endgame-weirdness, but this just makes no sense.

Why would that be something? What possible reason could there be? An ability like that admittedly could make sense for mafia up against cops and inventors, but not for town.




Observations about Toony's play

You don't have to decide whether you think Toony is mafia. I'm telling you he's mafia. You have to decide whether or not he's more likely to be mafia than me. So let's have a brief look through the game. I'm not doing a line-by-line on his posts where I misconstrue every word and describe ordinary actions as suggestively as possible. I'm just going to give you the facts about what he has very visibly done.

D1, he has a hard scumread on EuchreJack. Vector does not scumread Jack. Tric does not. Even I do not, although I vote him to stay alive because I don't really trust my ability to read people D1. Toony, in every previous game, has confidently and perfectly read EuchreJack D1. But now, apparently, it's natural for him to get that completely wrong.

Toony has also been on every single mislynch. Which is a pretty strong deviation from his previous play. The Max lynch perhaps isn't as incriminating as the other two, but taken with the other two it's pretty odd.

Toony just claimed that there's a multi-tasking even-nights only mafiakill with some weird property that also stopped his action, while his ability is in fact a "gun-or-cop-smith". In other words, he claims there's only one mafia and they get to kill once every two days, while he has a gunsmith ability that's specifically blind to cop-claims for some reason, in a situation where his supposed mafia is pretty likely to end up showing their deflector power very quickly because a captain know who they are and so couldn't reasonably cop-claim. Which is all pretty obviously ridiculous.

Toony has played a mostly strong mafia game. It's just that things are catching up with him, and he's struggling to explain them.

I on the other hand tried to warn town D1 that engaging with Max was pretty much always the way it was, expressed reservations about his lynch D2, told town exactly my result D3 even though it made no sense to anyone including me, and have been the first to claim after every night but N3, in which it was pretty obvious that I deflected Vector onto Tric. If I were mafia with a multitask kill, I'd at least have tried to steal a gun, not protect Vector from what I thought was a 2-person scumteam.

[TricMagic]

Roden flipped town, so we can trust that he used the repel:

Night 2, I used my Repel and prevented Tric from being able to interact with NJW. I actually misread it and thought I would be the reverse since I was trying to protect Tric, but it ultimately didn't matter.

It's essentially a one-way target-specific role block.

So... Tric not being able to interact with me is why your action failed? This is going to be interesting.

(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.

Important question.
 Who did Roden target N2? Cause Repel simply prevents people from interacting with a player. Question is is it just that person, or everyone.

(Auto) Orders: Instead of being able to choose your own action target, your target is selected for you by the Captain. You may still choose not to act. If the Captain dies, you lose the ability to act if they were Town and gain the ability to act freely if they were non-Town.
(1-Shot, Night) Jailkeep [target]: You use a set of locksmith’s tools to lock your target’s door shut, preventing them from acting but also protecting them from kill actions, this Night. They will be given a ‘you were roleblocked’ result if they attempted to act.
(1-Shot, Night) Rolestop [target]: You use a network of tripwires and chains to ensure that all actions used on your target tonight will fail, except this one.
(1-Shot, Night) Repel [target]: Choose a player (you do not visit your choice). You use magnetic dust on your target, causing their action to fail if it would visit your chosen player.

What's the difference between Rolestop and Repel? Web ordered Roden to target me, but Roden targeted NJW?

[TricMagic]

Main issue here is that Toony would have had to try and kill me to get the action failed result.

Ah, right. Toony never brought this up. Why did you never tell us who you deflected Web to? We focused on someone managing to bypass it Day 3, but we never learned who would have died instead.

[ToonyMan]

@NJW:

1. That's not how gunsmith works, this is either genuine ignorance or NJW is trying to discredit me. Gee I wonder which one.

2. I feel bad about the Jack lynch, it was like seeing Matrix 6 except I was there. I really felt their behavior was like Round 1. For Max shit happens and I don't know how they play. And for D3 it was a 50/50 shot between you and Roden it turns out.

3. This setup seems horribly townsided if you kill your ally, isn't it NJW? We don't know how the factional kill works but it must be more FoU oddness as only Web has died at night. Mafia literally haven't killed a single townie which is indeed bonkers.

4. Jack and Roden were on to you during the course of the game. You had no idea what was going on with Web which is why you killed him to try to get some breathing room and disable everyone, since you thought it would be very unlikely you'd have an ally inside the group, didn't you?

[ToonyMan]

Main issue here is that Toony would have had to try and kill me to get the action failed result.

Ah, right. Toony never brought this up. Why did you never tell us who you deflected Web to? We focused on someone managing to bypass it Day 3, but we never learned who would have died instead.

NJW claims they deflected Web to me. So I should have died if he's telling the truth I think.

[TricMagic]

Did they claim that D2 or D3 though? I don't remember it on D2..

[NJW2000]

Spoiler: replies to Toony's largely meaningless quibbles (click to show/hide)

@NJW:

1. That's not how gunsmith works, this is either genuine ignorance or NJW is trying to discredit me. Gee I wonder which one.

I have no idea what you're even saying here. What am I meant to have got wrong about the gunsmith role?

2. I feel bad about the Jack lynch, it was like seeing Matrix 6 except I was there. I really felt their behavior was like Round 1. For Max shit happens and I don't know how they play. And for D3 it was a 50/50 shot between you and Roden it turns out.

Nope. No such thing as a 50/50, you have reads and are a strong player. Besides, Jack's behaviour was nothing like round 1. Vector saw it, Tric saw it, even I saw it a bit. It basically isn't believeable that you didn't see it.

3. This setup seems horribly townsided if you kill your ally, isn't it NJW? We don't know how the factional kill works but it must be more FoU oddness as only Web has died at night. Mafia literally haven't killed a single townie which is indeed bonkers.

It seems reasonable with mafia-ally captain and scum with a consistent kill. Which you have, you just chose not to use last night, and presumably didn't use or screwed up using N1. And yeah, you screwed up and killed your ally, despite my deflect. You'd have lost immediately if FoU's policies were any kind of consistent, or if I'd thought to check everything about my role more carefully. Hope you're enjoying the fact that you're still in the game solely due to luck and town's incompetence 

4. Jack and Roden were on to you during the course of the game. You had no idea what was going on with Web which is why you killed him to try to get some breathing room and disable everyone, since you thought it would be very unlikely you'd have an ally inside the group, didn't you?

Jack being onto me is basically irrelevant. Roden being onto me... yeah, because I was claiming something that made no sense D3. Now I've finally understood FoU's weird conventions, it makes sense. Sadly Roden didn't get to see that, but they had both of us on their elimination list.

Main issue here is that Toony would have had to try and kill me to get the action failed result.

Ah, right. Toony never brought this up. Why did you never tell us who you deflected Web to? We focused on someone managing to bypass it Day 3, but we never learned who would have died instead.

He is lying about the action failed result. He did not get an action failed result.

As I say here, I deflected Web onto Toony N2. N1, I deflected him onto Max.

I did deflect Web onto Toony, but Toony was targeting web. My action gets bypassed without me being told if it would cause someone to self-target. Because, as you found out last round, FoU has some very particular ideas as a GM. I think the logic is that my action doesn't fail or change target, it's just the shield I create that fails.

That's why I spent all of D3 attempting to work out what was going on. Why wouldn't I just claim something easier - like deflecting myself or Toony onto someone, or simply not obeying Web because I didn't trust him, or having been roleblocked? Anything would be better as scum than what I actually did.

What's the difference between Rolestop and Repel? Web ordered Roden to target me, but Roden targeted NJW?

Repel stops one specific player (the target) acting on another specific player. Roden claimed, and we should believe him, that he was forced to target you, and repelled from me. So for Toony's interpretation to make sense, Web would have had to order both roden and I to target you, from his perspective assigning roden's ability at random and losing his protection. Which I don't think is something Web would do. Especially as he gave himself two layers of protection the night before.

[ToonyMan]

Hope you're enjoying the fact that you're still in the game solely due to luck and town's incompetence 

Yeah, sweat more buddy.

I did deflect Web onto Toony, but Toony was targeting web. My action gets bypassed without me being told if it would cause someone to self-target. Because, as you found out last round, FoU has some very particular ideas as a GM. I think the logic is that my action doesn't fail or change target, it's just the shield I create that fails.

Why make hypotheticals on D3 instead of just asking the mod like you have today? It's only because you need to now.

That's why I spent all of D3 attempting to work out what was going on. Why wouldn't I just claim something easier - like deflecting myself or Toony onto someone, or simply not obeying Web because I didn't trust him, or having been roleblocked? Anything would be better as scum than what I actually did.

Why wouldn't I just claim something easier? I'm under suspicious for this action failed result the same way you are for your non-deflection. Right now I think the most likely explanation is the solo mafia has a special ability you are taking advantage of. The Captain ally would not be aware of any of that so we're in the dark.


@Tric and Vector:
One of us is cornered, it's the question of which.

[TricMagic]

NJW, Vote for Toony.

[NJW2000]

Why make hypotheticals on D3 instead of just asking the mod like you have today? It's only because you need to now.

I needed to know D3, except FoU had made it pretty clear that we'd know if we were roleblocked or redirected, so I assumed something else must have happened. I freely admit I screwed up there, weird as FoU's convention is.

Why wouldn't I just claim something easier? I'm under suspicious for this action failed result the same way you are for your non-deflection. Right now I think the most likely explanation is the solo mafia has a special ability you are taking advantage of. The Captain ally would not be aware of any of that so we're in the dark.

You didn't have any better ideas for claims, presumably.

And yeah, if Tric and Vector haven't clocked that one of us must be lying by now, I'd be pretty astonished.

NJW, Vote for Toony.

Eh?

[TricMagic]

Why make hypotheticals on D3 instead of just asking the mod like you have today? It's only because you need to now.

I needed to know D3, except FoU had made it pretty clear that we'd know if we were roleblocked or redirected, so I assumed something else must have happened. I freely admit I screwed up there, weird as FoU's convention is.

Why wouldn't I just claim something easier? I'm under suspicious for this action failed result the same way you are for your non-deflection. Right now I think the most likely explanation is the solo mafia has a special ability you are taking advantage of. The Captain ally would not be aware of any of that so we're in the dark.

You didn't have any better ideas for claims, presumably.

And yeah, if Tric and Vector haven't clocked that one of us must be lying by now, I'd be pretty astonished.

NJW, Vote for Toony.

Eh?

Kinda funny that is all you have to say. Are you still holding doubts?

[NJW2000]

I am voting for him, right? I didn't bold an 'unvote'

Sure though:

Toonyman