Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Leviathan7]

TLDR - Problem: I want to train offensive + defensive melee combat skills in full metal armor, but i'm too slow. No cheese grinding against pests.

I've played the fortress mode a few times in the past, but now i'm eagerly delving into the promising adventure mode. I'm a perfectionist, and after spending *days* of research to figure out the game mode's mechanics --which ones function and which don't, i've managed to start a fairly optimized character; one that doesn't have any attributes or skills allocated to something that has absolutely no application in adventure mode.
I've chosen to start a hero-level bard/fighter. I've put most of my attribute points into combat (Agility, Strength, Toughness), but some into other choices (Social Awareness, Musicality).
I smartly selected the Hunter occupation to boost ambushing, crossbow and dodge.
I spread out my skill point selection a great deal, being a novice in most combat skills and some social skills.
I do NOT like cheesy grinding, and won't be wrestling a crab or other nonsense to increase skills/attributes. I will hunt down and fight kobolds and goblins, or whatever else is appropriate for my character's combat skill level until he gets gud.

The problem I am having, is that he is far too slow. Despite having above average strength and high agility, his walk speed is at most 0.5. I can't catch up to most weaker enemies in order to fight them.
Their sprint > my sprint. I can sometimes sneak up to them, but because I can't yet kill them in one hit, they often get away. Even when the enemies DO stay and fight, my two companions close the distance much faster than me, and massacre the enemies before I can sprint up to join the fight --which is somewhat strange, because my companions are wearing almost full iron armor.

I am fully aware of WHY my speed is low: I am wearing full copper armor (copper helm, mail, gauntlets, greaves, high boots, + shield), and not only does the armor restrict movement, but it's weight does as well. I also wear linens or spider silk clothing underneath, and don't carry much in my backpack; about 5 meat, and 20-30 gemstones for currency.
I have been working to swap out the armor pieces for bronze, which weighs slightly less, but the difference is miniscule.
I am also only a novice in the Armor User skill. I am praying that it eventually has a huge impact on speed, which would make sense as to why my companions are so fast --they have an invisible high Armor User skill (speculation).

Options that are NOT good solutions:
- Switching to leather, or wearing less metal armor: I intend to train melee combat skills SAFELY. And against weak, but not helpless enemies who will strike back. Therefore it is risky to reduce protection.
- Using ranged weapons: I can't train defensive skills if I am not attacked.
- Dismissing companions: They are a dynamic safety net that I would rather keep handy. Despite being heavily armored, i'm sure that even just 2 goblins attacking me at once is very dangerous.

Notes:
- Some fights against goblins who slightly outnumber me seem fruitful (3 vs 4-5), because they are weak enough, choose to fight, and my two companions are busy enough to allow me the opportunity to exchange attacks with the goblins, but as soon as it gets to greater than twice my number, it's too risky. I wouldn't mind this method of training if these groups of goblins were common, but they are few and far between.
- I had an accidental 1 on 1 with a lion because my companions ran off, and it almost seemed as though fighting a lion was the solution, until it eventually killed me. I survived a good 6-7 "rounds" of fighting with the lion, as my defenses worked well, despite getting knocked down a lot. However, all of my attacks --even the "easy" ones-- missed (novice swordsman), and eventually the lion latched onto my neck and mauled me to death. If only I could get a hit or two in! Fortunately, I back up my save frequently, and just restored everything after that. I don't do permadeath. Not in this game.
- I have considered temporarily removing only the metal greaves, which weigh about 25 lbs.

Questions:
- Does anyone know how effective the Armor User skill is? Does it help a great deal once it gets high?
- Can a character even be both well-armored *and* fast?
- Are there other, more ideal enemies against which to train? What is fighting criminals like?

Thank you!

[peasant cretin]

Questions:
- Does anyone know how effective the Armor User skill is? Does it help a great deal once it gets high?
- Can a character even be both well-armored *and* fast?
- Are there other, more ideal enemies against which to train? What is fighting criminals like?

Thank you!

1. Armor user levels each time you perform a combat action. Its utility, even at legendary, is conditional. The generalist short answer is only armor soak hits from NPCs your size, hopefully weaker, and from lighter weapons (spear, short sword, scimitar). Otherwise parry/block/dodge.
2. Yes, in regard to sprint speed. If your strength is high enough, if your agility is high enough.
3. Fites!:
-If you know your dodge/block/parry level versus the opponent's attack level, you can risk manage your fights.
-Animals are level 0 (dabbling) and cannot learn. They will always be level 0.
-Giant/cyclops/ettin are level 0 (dabbling), but they are big and can learn.
-The base level (their equipment has no quality) hearthperson/bandit has a level 3 weapon skill with a level 1 dodger/shield.
-I don't now if you want more about the stat spectrum so I'll just leave it at the above.

General comments:
-Full armor coverage is provided by helm, mail shirt, gauntlets, high boots. You don't need the breastplate or greaves for now. For current character discard or put on pack animal.
-Plant cloth clothing is the heaviest. As a civ character, I'd sell all the clothing back for character equipment points. For current character, discard all clothing.
-High strength + novice armor skill is enough to keep you at 1.000 walking speed under this armor setup.
-Your companions are faster now because you are slower. If you have a character at 1K walking speed, you'd notice the NPCs are usually slow.

[Cathar]

1. Armor user levels each time you perform a combat action. Its utility, even at legendary, is conditional. The generalist short answer is only armor soak hits from NPCs your size, hopefully weaker, and from lighter weapons (spear, short sword, scimitar). Otherwise parry/block/dodge.
2. Yes, in regard to sprint speed. If your strength is high enough, if your agility is high enough.

1. Armor user increases each time you get a hit that is mitigated by armor from my experience.
2. Armor user is the specific skill used to reduce and eventually nullify the weight/encumbrance penalty of armors.

Also as a rule of thumb : armor is necessary. There are probably kisat-dur build that can allow you to fight naked, but in general, armoring up is what gives your hero his modicum of lifespan.

If you want to train, hunt. Wrestle small animals (while in armor) to increase your defense skills and in general whack wildlife with flat hits to increase your offense skills.

[Rukki]

[peasant cretin]

1. Armor user increases each time you get a hit that is mitigated by armor from my experience.
2. Armor user is the specific skill used to reduce and eventually nullify the weight/encumbrance penalty of armors.

Also as a rule of thumb : armor is necessary. There are probably kisat-dur build that can allow you to fight naked, but in general, armoring up is what gives your hero his modicum of lifespan.

Yeah, you definitely get the most armor XP when you get hit, but for the purposes of what I was saying, I don't want to encourage eating arbitrary shots given force transfer. Armor soak is conditional to size, build, strength, and weapon. Your can't eliminate force transfer risk when armor soaking, but you can minimize it.

From just the flat game mechanics-non-kisatdur-POV, there are 3 layers of defense in game, outermost to innermost:
Layer 1 is your unit's dodger, which if high enough, can cause opponent roll to hit/grab failure (and yes some opponents simply fail their roll without stat comparison versus with your dodger).
Layer 2 is your unit's roll to (active/passive) parry/block/dodge versus opponent roll to hit/grab. An active choice is better than auto-defense's passive parry/block/dodge.
Layer 3 is when your unit has failed Layer 2, resulting in armor soaking the shot.

I have a longer write up on armor soak, but briefly: inspect each opponent, eat body shots, avoid limb and head shots if possible. Halt those at Layer 2. No Kisat Dur required, just manage your stat comparisons (your dodge/block/parry level versus the opponent's weapon/strike/kick/etc level).

[Yarlig]

Everything's mostly been said already' but I'll throw in my two cents about training:

• Swim a lot. It builds up essentially all attributes relevant in combat' save toughness. Just make sure you don't drown. Or freeze to death' so check the temperature with 'P'. If it's cold or below' don't take the risk.
• Walk with crutches even if you have strong healthy legs. This might be seen as an exploit' but it's actually an investment for the future - if you get maimed at any point' it's better to be prepared in advance.
• Try to hunt waterborne critters like fish or turtles at first. Move on to wolves or dingoes and recruits' then to bigger animals' soldiers and then to semimegas.
• Steer away from night trolls until you have your combat skills displayed in light blue at least; those are very common and can quickly kill even a decently strong adventurer.
• Start bar brawls. You won't be fighting to the death' and can always 'y'ield out of the fight' so there's no major risk' but you can train up dodging' armor' shield and unarmed combat skills against a roughly equal opponent. Just don't bite' use weapons' or go for the throat/head which will make the opponent get into lethal mode. You can discard most armor pieces' leaving only' say' a mail shirt and a helmet for basic protection.
• If you spot a reasonably unskilled opponent' have the companions wait at a distance where you can talk to them. This way they won't kill the enemies before you do' but you'll be able to call them in case the fight goes awry.

[Leviathan7]

Wow, all of your posts have very useful information! Thanks to each of you!

-If you know your dodge/block/parry level versus the opponent's attack level, you can risk manage your fights.
-Animals are level 0 (dabbling) and cannot learn. They will always be level 0.
-Giant/cyclops/ettin are level 0 (dabbling), but they are big and can learn.
-The base level (their equipment has no quality) hearthperson/bandit has a level 3 weapon skill with a level 1 dodger/shield.

-Full armor coverage is provided by helm, mail shirt, gauntlets, high boots. You don't need the breastplate or greaves for now. For current character discard or put on pack animal.
-Plant cloth clothing is the heaviest. As a civ character, I'd sell all the clothing back for character equipment points. For current character, discard all clothing.

Definitely useful info about opponents, I will make sure to use that. I also just took another, closer look at the wiki, specifically the Encumbrance section on the Armor page. I don't know why I didn't notice it the first time around. Probably due to the sheer amount of information I had to read through lol. The second paragraph confirms what you are saying: "...Wearing a combination of 1 pair of metal gauntlets, 1 pair of metal high boots, 1 metal helmet, and 1 metal mail shirt gives an armor level 2 (Verify?)"
It then goes on to say that a breastplate and greaves are only important when protecting against crushing attacks, so I can do without them until I skill up, and just avoid enemies with blunt weapons (or prioritize them in combat).
What do you mean by "character equipment points"? You mean weight units right? I wish to retain some sense of realism, and wear a layer of light clothing (padding) underneath the armor. I don't mind it that much, if all it does is add about 4 lbs (1 lbs per item).

2. Armor user is the specific skill used to reduce and eventually nullify the weight/encumbrance penalty of armors.
...If you want to train, hunt. Wrestle small animals (while in armor) to increase your defense skills and in general whack wildlife with flat hits to increase your offense skills.

Yes, this is what I wanted to hear. The wiki only hints at the effectiveness of Armor user: it doesn't show how each level of the skill mathematically reduces the effect of weight, and to what extent legendary does. I can also accept striking wildlife with the flat side of weapons to prolong the fight for training purposes

I don't want to encourage eating arbitrary shots given force transfer. Armor soak is conditional to size, build, strength, and weapon. Your can't eliminate force transfer risk when armor soaking, but you can minimize it.
Layer 1 is your unit's dodger, which if high enough, can cause opponent roll to hit/grab failure (and yes some opponents simply fail their roll without stat comparison versus with your dodger).
Layer 2 is your unit's roll to (active/passive) parry/block/dodge versus opponent roll to hit/grab. An active choice is better than auto-defense's passive parry/block/dodge.
I have a longer write up on armor soak, but briefly: inspect each opponent, eat body shots, avoid limb and head shots if possible. Halt those at Layer 2.

Absolutely. I definitely won't be training against larger enemies, or enemies that have large blunt weapons!
But one question; how do I "eat body shots, avoid limb and head shots if possible." Is there a way to affect what the enemy targets? Or to choose which incoming attacks to parry? Doesn't the active choice to parry defend against all incoming attacks?

[peasant cretin]

Wearing a combination of 1 pair of metal gauntlets, 1 pair of metal high boots, 1 metal helmet, and 1 metal mail shirt gives an armor level 2 (Verify?)"
It then goes on to say that a breastplate and greaves are only important when protecting against crushing attacks, so I can do without them until I skill up, and just avoid enemies with blunt weapons (or prioritize them in combat).

-Yes, any metal armor item gives you armor level 2 (masks excluded), though breastplate or greaves is armor level 3. For the most part, the differences aren't that important, only that the helm, mail shirt, gauntlets, high boots "cover" your entire character.

What do you mean by "character equipment points"?

-If you are playing version 47.04, or 47.05, you can buy or sell equipment during character creation.

But one question; how do I "eat body shots, avoid limb and head shots if possible."

-Observer skill may tell you what bodypart your opponent is aiming for. But when in doubt actively block/parry or dodge it—whatever your highest skill is.

Is there a way to affect what the enemy targets?

-This is old info and perhaps has changed, but largely NPC AI targets the lowest armor level body part, preferably armor level 0 ^_^

Or to choose which incoming attacks to parry? Doesn't the active choice to parry defend against all incoming attacks?

-Each opponent can only make a single attack per "round". You will be able choose to actively Parry/Block/Dodge to address this attack. Once this choice is made, your defensive options will drop by one.
-If you are fighting what would be considered the optimally maximum number of multiple opponents at two; there may be 2 attacks coming your way. If you chose to active parry the first attack, only block and dodge would remain as passive defensive options against the second attack.