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[ToonyMan]

Jack your self-vote actually did confirm that Roden and Pref were town, but it still left the two mafia inside FoU/Magma/Jack and everyone wanted to kill you for acting insane during lylo. You might have been able to leverage that Roden and Pref were 100% town if you weren't butting heads with Roden so much and calmed down.



EDIT:
Actually I guess it would just prove that at least one inside Roden/Pref is town. Good enough.

[Roden]

I'm not holding any post game grudges either. I genuinely believe voting Jack was the best option so he could at least learn why he got voted out and try to change what he did in future games. Because even as a newbie game, there's certain things you should know not to do and shouldn't go unchecked if you keep doing them.

I've had games where I kept trying to forgive someone played similarly to how Jack has, and they won as mafia that way because they used being new as a cover for making scummy plays. I can't personally justify letting that go unchecked in games anymore since it just encourages scum to get away with openly scum plays.

Alright, I'm calmer.  But you have to see the reason I'm pissed.  You lost the game to prove a point.  You shouldn't do that.
You're all like "I'm teaching him a lesson".  Self-justification.
You also NEVER TELL ME WHAT I'M DOING WRONG.  This is why I kept getting more and more pissed at you.  I don't mean genereralizations, I mean like specific quotes.

Quick hypothesis: Jack and FoU are scum, know that this is the most likely PoE for town, and he's trying to sow confusion.

Quick hypothesis: I hate you all, and I'm sick of playing with you.  I've been suspected all game by everyone, and now its going to cost the majority of you the game.  I think, at this point, I'm just going to claim to be the 3rd member of the mafia team, and change my win condition to match theirs.

ATTENTION TOWN: I was town, but am now considering myself to be Mafia-aligned.  Ergo, when you mislynch me, I shall call it a win.  And a jolly Fuck You to you all. Die in ditch.

Also if you ever post something like this you can't blame other people for your lynch. If it's genuine then town has already lost because 2 scum+you is a majority, and if it's not then you should be lynched. So the only play is for town to lynch you.

Like Pref did here.  Yeah, that was stupid.

Also MY tunneling the two town players...that certainly cost us the game.  But I console myself that Toonyman was wrong all along also.  So we're no worse than the Vet!  Yay Team Town!  Not worse than the Vet!

EDIT: It feels good to edit again!

Jack. We were all telling you what you did wrong. You either ignored us or you got hostile and defensive every single time. By the time we were on Day 3 I just gave up since talking to you didn't seem to actually do anything. I couldn't even get you to answer a simple question anymore. And then you confidently claimed I was scum with zero actual evidence after we'd just town read each other. AND you kept threatening to self vote.

It got to the point where I genuinely thought you had to be scum because it felt so unlikely town would act the way you did. In the off chance you were town, then it would hopefully show you that what you kept doing made you look like you were mafia.

[EuchreJack]

I'm not holding any post game grudges either. I genuinely believe voting Jack was the best option so he could at least learn why he got voted out and try to change what he did in future games. Because even as a newbie game, there's certain things you should know not to do and shouldn't go unchecked if you keep doing them.

I've had games where I kept trying to forgive someone played similarly to how Jack has, and they won as mafia that way because they used being new as a cover for making scummy plays. I can't personally justify letting that go unchecked in games anymore since it just encourages scum to get away with openly scum plays.

Alright, I'm calmer.  But you have to see the reason I'm pissed.  You lost the game to prove a point.  You shouldn't do that.
You're all like "I'm teaching him a lesson".  Self-justification.
You also NEVER TELL ME WHAT I'M DOING WRONG.  This is why I kept getting more and more pissed at you.  I don't mean genereralizations, I mean like specific quotes.

Quick hypothesis: Jack and FoU are scum, know that this is the most likely PoE for town, and he's trying to sow confusion.

Quick hypothesis: I hate you all, and I'm sick of playing with you.  I've been suspected all game by everyone, and now its going to cost the majority of you the game.  I think, at this point, I'm just going to claim to be the 3rd member of the mafia team, and change my win condition to match theirs.

ATTENTION TOWN: I was town, but am now considering myself to be Mafia-aligned.  Ergo, when you mislynch me, I shall call it a win.  And a jolly Fuck You to you all. Die in ditch.

Also if you ever post something like this you can't blame other people for your lynch. If it's genuine then town has already lost because 2 scum+you is a majority, and if it's not then you should be lynched. So the only play is for town to lynch you.

Like Pref did here.  Yeah, that was stupid.

Also MY tunneling the two town players...that certainly cost us the game.  But I console myself that Toonyman was wrong all along also.  So we're no worse than the Vet!  Yay Team Town!  Not worse than the Vet!

EDIT: It feels good to edit again!

Jack. We were all telling you what you did wrong. You either ignored us or you got hostile and defensive every single time. By the time we were on Day 3 I just gave up since talking to you didn't seem to actually do anything. I couldn't even get you to answer a simple question anymore. And then you confidently claimed I was scum with zero actual evidence after we'd just town read each other. AND you kept threatening to self vote.

It got to the point where I genuinely thought you had to be scum because it felt so unlikely town would act the way you did. In the off chance you were town, then it would hopefully show you that what you kept doing made you look like you were mafia.

AND YOU AGAIN GIVE NO EXAMPLES!!!!
can you see how you piss me off?

[EuchreJack]

[Bad things go bye bye]

[Roden]

AND YOU AGAIN GIVE NO EXAMPLES!!!!
can you see how you piss me off?

It would be mean to say it was literally everything. But I'll start by saying shit like this makes no one want to believe you or trust you. And I did give examples, you wouldn't answer questions and you claimed I was scum with zero evidence. You lied and twisted a dead man's words multiple times. And you constantly acted like you were superior to everyone and tried to boss us around and scum hunt for you.

[ToonyMan]

Also, lol at scumchat:

Nope. Not if you both leave your votes on me for a full 24 hours or something. There's going to be at least one or two hours in that time span where mafia can communicate and do the quickhammer.

... what? Brain hurty.

Let me help little brain FoU.

Scum #1 posts at 9am - "Hey Toony has two votes on him, let's coordinate a quickhammer so we just win."
Scum #2 at like 2pm - "Alright man, how about at 9pm today or if that doesn't work for you I can be around for 9am tomorrow to perform the quickhammer."
Scum #1 posts at like 3pm - "Cool cool, yeah 9pm works for me."
or
Scum #1 posts at like 3pm - "9pm is too late for me sorry, but yeah I can do 9am tomorrow, see you there."

I'll be online all day, let me know when you can do a quickhammer

Right, let me know when you're available. If there's still a town vote placed, we can go ahead and win this.

I'm online now

at :45, in 4 minutes?

Got it.

[Roden]

@Roden: Your self-entitled attitude is really pissing me off.  I'm reasonably sure I don't like you.  I'll probably play mafia with you again, since I can probably figure out how to work with you, and even sketch out a win (if we're the same alignment), but I just don't like you.
And you're like...the 3rd person on these boards that I've thought that about in my 10 or so years.  So it's an accomplishment, of sorts.

I think you just don't like that I don't respond positively to your attitude. I don't have anything against you, I just think you're exhausting and that you have a superiority complex.

[TricMagic]

One of the points of mafia is to hunt mafia. Not let others do the hunting for you. (Of note, you did make a post the mafia were worried about day 2, but given no one touched it, it was likely lost in the deluge of your posts. Taking the time to put together arguments is effective, given how people actually praise me as being effective(and mafia) when I bother to do so.)

[Magma Mater]

I'm actually surprised my original guess on Magma was correct lol. Even if we got FoU today I think Magma likely wins in a final three scenario since I'd moved on from suspecting them. GG to mafia.

This is true. I would have never voted Magma in a F3. I expected FoU to die during D3 honestly.

Jack since you were town I would seriously take to heart what I said during the game as it will improve your play whether you're town or mafia.

Honestly, the only thing I can recall is your suspicions of my being Scum.  But I can remember some of it.  And I've picked up a few pointers myself.
Basically: Be a politician.  Don't piss off everyone at the same time.  Don't be TOO smart. Beware those being too nice to you. Don't get emotional.
Also, for me, post less.  A lot less.  Cause people stop reading after a certain point.

Rather than "post less" I would say "Avoid posting every thought you have". In my opinion, you appeared to change your mind too much. As scum, it made your positions easy to ignore because I knew you would change them every few pages regardless.
I'd also say that when making a case, you need to post your opinion on the posts you're referencing. When you say things like, "is this scum indicative? Could be!" It doesn't tell us what you're thinking and it doesn't help anyone town-read you.

[EuchreJack]

I think you just don't like that I don't respond positively to your attitude. I don't have anything against you, I just think you're exhausting and that you have a superiority complex.

I appreciate you saying that.  I no longer have anything against you, and will try to work on my faults.  Now if you don't mind, I got a few angry posts to rewrite...

[EuchreJack]

[oh whatever, gg Roden]

[ToonyMan]

My Night Action Logic
I tracked Bluarian on N1, suspecting them to quietly carry the kill out. Unfortunately, whenever Blu is actually town they die immediately. I tracked Jack on N2 as FoU was obvscum and I suspected they wouldn't be the one that performs the kill. I didn't really want to be a PR since I was dying at night no matter what I did...

Anyway, I want to comment on Magma's play here.

Magma's Mafia Play
Nothing Magma did on D1 set off my town tell senses, but these two posts on D2 did:

#304 - Magma reads me as town with a completely reasonable conclusion after suspecting me on D1, very well played mafia post.
#326 - I'm a sucker for these kinds of posts AND they put FoU as their top suspect. FoU was a dead man, but Magma completely covered their tracks. This is a very good bus post, in addition they jumped on the FoU wagon at the end of Day 1 which makes the bus very convincing.

I base my reads off logic and intuition, but I'm not infallible and find most of my success when working with the rest of town. You can't expect to solve a game on your own so you need to be cooperative with other players whether you suspect them or not. Maybe I could have realized that FoU was purposely playing bad to eat the bus and implicate Jack, but it's easier when you have other sets of eyes to help you. Roden and Pref suspected Magma/FoU at EOD2, for example.

As town (or mafia pretending to be town) it's important to have a natural logic to your posts to come off as genuine and I don't think Magma gave any hard tells that they were behaving unnaturally which is the main reason I couldn't pin them down. Maybe if I had more time and did the Magma ISO I would have seen things differently, but probably not.


PPE:

@Jack:
Not to be too harsh Jack, but Roden and Pref had the mafia team solved at EOD2. They both wanted FoU/Magma dead, it was literally just me that couldn't believe your play during D2, which you did nothing to change during D3. This caused Roden to break their reads in favor of trusting my reads more as you were acting out far too much.

[EuchreJack]

@Jack:
Not to be too harsh Jack, but Roden and Pref had the mafia team solved at EOD2. They both wanted FoU/Magma dead, it was literally just me that couldn't believe your play during D2, which you did nothing to change during D3. This caused Roden to break their reads in favor of trusting my reads more as you were acting out far too much.

Nah, that is fair.  I just wish I understood what I did wrong D2.  I sorta understand D3, but the problem I'm having is that I actually thought I was doing well.
And then everyone says how scummy I am.  I just don't understand.  And as I get frustrated, I get angry.  I can understand being angry looking bad.
But it just hurts when everyone is attacking me and nobody is helping me.

Also, you were not a great trainer for Hedgerow.
The issue is that an experienced veteran, such as yourself, is too experienced to know what is means to be a complete newbie.  This is why many organizations don't put their most experienced person training those that are completely new, they instead put someone intermediate into the training role.  FOU, for example, was probably a better trainer, as being more intermediate.  I think I learned more from Blue in my early games than you, honestly.

I think maybe you suspect people just because they figured out stuff that you haven't.  I feel that is unfair.

[Vector]

But it just hurts when everyone is attacking me and nobody is helping me.

Having not paid much attention to the specifics of the game, I will say that people "helping" you are not always your friends. The "help" that Webadict historically gives new players is toxic when he's scum and they're town -- other forums call this pocketing.

You apparently had a bad time in this game, but don't forget that every misreading is an interaction. The way that you played caused that misreading, so did your fellow townies applications and misapplications of trust and pressure. It's never actually one person who causes an outcome.


It's honestly good that we didn't have the Webadict/Toony dream team in this game, since it's not especially helpful for anyone to get used to playing against the same person in every outing.

[TricMagic]

I'll be honest, if that happened I would have rerolled it. Veterans vs newbies is not a good thing.