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[Roden]

If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

I like this idea a lot. It's a bit game-y, but hey the wiki acknowledges it's not a perfect strategy either.

I'm not a one-shot Bulletproof Townie.

I saw that strat too but I don't want to rely on it unless it falls in our lap. It just feels a little lame, which is why I originally only brought up BP.

I think mafia would be more worried about a BP not existing, tbh. If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

That's the point I'm making. It's kind of like the concept of a Fleet-in-being... in simple terms, ensuring that your opponent doesn't know where your power lies gives you a massive strategic advantage because they have to act as if the worst-case-scenario is true. In our hypothetical scenario where a tracker has claimed, it makes no difference whether the wolves know that there is a doctor or not. They are forced to act as if the doctor is protecting the tracker.

I don't really see the problem here tbh. But I don't think we gain anything out of arguing about it so I'll concede.

Side note but I agree that it looks like Jack seems more concerned with looking town than with hunting mafia. I also don't see the point in scum reading a player just because they roll the alignment often. RNG isn't alignment indicative.

[EuchreJack]

Pref has a good reason for voting me

So it's true you're focusing on trying to look town and not find mafia?

Where's your read list Toonyman?

It's true that I was being lazy before, not really trying to find scum, AND spent way too much time bragging about my townness.  Dumb day 1 play on my part, I'll freely admit to that.  Also, the reason I'm getting the town read off of Pref is because:
1) Pref is using the same language that I used on Roguelike.  I invented the question "why are you focused on looking town and not on finding mafia?"
Might be a bit of an exaggeration to say "invented", as I'm sure its been used in mafia before, but I at least said it in that game.
2) In that game, I pushed the lynch as Town on Pref, who flipped Town.  Ergo, its either great mafia play by Pref or a town read.
Look, you're a mafia game grandmaster, so you can limit yourself to certain strategies.  I'm in the trenches scrambling for a Town win, I'll use whatever tools get me the win.  Meta is certainly a tool I'm using.

Hm, still no read list Toonyman?  My my, that is suspicious.  And not even an explanation, just some lame gif.

[EuchreJack]

I also don't see the point in scum reading a player just because they roll the alignment often. RNG isn't alignment indicative.

It's called scumhunting.  I got a reaction out of Blue, now they can be examined for signs of scum.  In fact, I'm promoted Blue from Always Rolls Scum to slightly scummy for trying to buddy me (it was a weak attack on me, and they voted the same person as me, ergo I'm calling it buddying).  Liked the read list though.  More people should be doing that.  Surprised ToonyMan hasn't thrown that in green text yet.

[EuchreJack]

If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

I like this idea a lot. It's a bit game-y, but hey the wiki acknowledges it's not a perfect strategy either.

I'm not a one-shot Bulletproof Townie.

I saw that strat too but I don't want to rely on it unless it falls in our lap. It just feels a little lame, which is why I originally only brought up BP.

Hm, so you're willing to risk losing the game to look cool? 

[EuchreJack]

I think mafia would be more worried about a BP not existing, tbh. If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

That's the point I'm making. It's kind of like the concept of a Fleet-in-being... in simple terms, ensuring that your opponent doesn't know where your power lies gives you a massive strategic advantage because they have to act as if the worst-case-scenario is true. In our hypothetical scenario where a tracker has claimed, it makes no difference whether the wolves know that there is a doctor or not. They are forced to act as if the doctor is protecting the tracker.

I should really give you a town point for that post, but that might just the naval buff in me.  Good strategic thinking though, and you communicated it well.

[EuchreJack]

@Tric: A votecount would help, whenever you get a chance.  Thanks for administering this game!

[ToonyMan]

I personally don't like throwing down a reads list until closer towards the end of D1. I think the value of reads in the first 24 hours are not very high, but yes every player should share how they feel about every other player before the day is over. I haven't been a mentor before and I don't want to abuse green text much beyond mechanical advice.

I can add some individual reads though.

Pretty sure Roden is town, why? They're openly discussing ways for town to game the Matrix6 system. I believe a mafia player would be hesitant to talk about that idea tbh. Maybe mafia!Roden would, but I'm not feeling it. Their confidence is convincing me they're town.

Side-note:

I found this forum through a game called Gnosia, since someone on the sub reddit linked the game a group played here a month or so ago, and though it was too late to play it got me interested in trying post-by-post.

Haha, really? I didn't catch this the first time reading the thread. It's a little unfortunate how that game went, but maybe we'll get a second Gnosia game that's closer in the future.

[EuchreJack]

@Toonyman: Thanks for the explanation and read.  Any other reads?
I'm going to shut up now so others can post.  I'll throw my 2 cents in for new players: Don't avoid posting because you're concerned of quality. 
Too much emphasis on quality causes the brain to shut down and the fingers not to post.  Posting helps Town.  Not posting hurts Town.  You want town to win right?

[Magma Mater]

Going to quote a couple of related posts here, for my own sanity and for readability.

EuchreJack.

I'd say the BP is irrelevant.  The hackers are going to win you over with flirtatious misinformation and forked reasoning.  We should eliminate anyone who buys into the townie-killing narrative, first.

I don't think that the BP discussion is irrelevant - if anything can give us an advantage, we should take it.
Do you think that anyone in particular is guilty of spreading misinformation?
Are you accusing EuchreJack of something here? Or is the post directed at him? I'm not sure if your vote is connected to anything else in this post. It's very vague and it reads like your objective is to shut down discussion.

hedgerow, how do you know what the hackers are going to do? Isn't it a little early for a policy lynch, especially in a beginner game?

a) Why are you assuming that Euchre is a policy lynch for hedgerow? As he's already said in-thread (and I even bothered to verify!), he tends to get killed by wolves early. I don't think it qualifies as a good policy to eliminate a player who is easily read without even attempting to do so.
b) What is your own reason for voting for Euchre? Judging from Euchre's later posts, I'm not sure whether the "looking town instead of hunting" comment is a joke.

EuchreJack.

I'd say the BP is irrelevant.  The hackers are going to win you over with flirtatious misinformation and forked reasoning.  We should eliminate anyone who buys into the townie-killing narrative, first.

hedgerow

First post is to vote someone without sufficient explanation as to why you are voting that person.  Hey, it's almost like you're mafia trying to form a bandwagon on a townie!  Ergo, my vote.  See how I explained myself?  Care to do the same?

Also, what does "We should eliminate anyone who buys into the townie-killing narrative" mean?  Mafia IS going to kill us during the night stage.

hedgerow voted for you first, but I think that accusing him of trying to build a bandwagon on you is a bit extreme, especially so early in the game. It's also really difficult to build a bandwagon and encourage others to vote the same way as you when you don't give clear reasons to make people want to join, so I'm not sure why you'd think this could be his intent. I have my own issues with his post, but I definitely wouldn't accuse him of encouraging people to vote for you.
In another vein, what do you think of Toony's vote on prefuzek? To me, that's also a vote without a real reason. What makes Toony's vote ok and hedgerow's bad?

[Magma Mater]

1. How much mafia experience would you say that you have?
2. Do you consider yourself good at the game?
3. What's your preference, town or wolf?
4. How would you describe your playstyle?

1. Eh... Maybe like 10+ years or so. Idk.
2. I'm decent. I am fairly intuitive, I can pick Town out from a mile away with a sniper rifle.
3. Depends. Town is always easier because you get more teammates, but scum is also fun because it is more skill-based. Or not, I dunno, whatever, lemons and such.
4. Inflamed Appendix.

Would you say that you put more effort in as a wolf than as town? That's what you seem to be trying to say.
If you're an inflamed appendix, should we be removing you from the game?  What exactly do you mean by this?

I put as much effort in as any alignment as I'm feeling, and honestly, I'm not really feeling like much, which is pretty unfortunate, but that's just how it is sometimes. Also, that was the subtext behind that statement, if only because I feel like I won't be contributing much this game, but that's also maybe a negative reinforcing statement, and a poor reflection on my normal play, and I kinda want to ask for a replacement, but I also think maybe I'll get better or nightkilled eventually and then I can sit back and let everyone else play.

Hm, I dunno. I haven't even really read anyone. I'd say "except ToonyMan," but my initial thoughts are Town-enough, and then I couldn't muster the energy for anything else.

I think that if you feel that you might need a replacement, you should ask the host to start searching now. Judging by the amount of time it took for this game to fill, he might take some time to find one.
That said, if you do want to stick around, here are some low-ball questions to hopefully get you engaged:
Why do you town-read ToonyMan?
What is your stance on the BP discussion?
Do you have thoughts on the votes that have been placed so far?

[Magma Mater]

I might not be super active the next couple of days but I'll try.

Magma Mater

1. How much mafia experience would you say that you have?
2. Do you consider yourself good at the game?
3. What's your preference, town or wolf?
4. How would you describe your playstyle?

I played a bunch of games here many years ago, but I don't think I was very good back then. I've played a few games here lately and I think I'm better now but I still feel pretty inexperienced with forum mafia (I've played tons of hidden-role games in person). I'm happy when I'm a wolf because it's rarer. I'm a pretty calm and methodical player and don't do anything too unexpected usually.

What have you learned from the answers you have so far? Are you suspicious of anyone yet?

Before answering your first question, I'll explain what I was hoping to achieve with the questions (even though hedgerow hasn't answered them  ).
The first question about experience was just to tell me what level of play to expect from each player. As an extreme example, I wouldn't allow an experienced player to get away with "accidentally" hammering someone (or at least I would give them a lot less leeway).
The second question about whether people think of themselves as good was basically a throw-away, I just put it in there as a super open-ended question because I felt that 1 and 3 were too close-ended and I didn't want to get a rhythm of easy answers going, if you know what I mean.
The third question is interesting. When a wolf answers this question, their first thought is most likely, "I can lie on this one," especially in a game where most of the players don't know each other. This is particularly true of players who enjoy playing wolf, since duplicity and deception are the main draws of the role for a person who enjoys those things. In other words, a wolf who enjoys playing wolf is more inclined to lie and say they enjoy town more. Under the assumption that town players will always answer honestly, more often than not, anyone who answers "wolf" to this question is town.
As for the fourth question about playstyle, it was a sneaky one to see if anybody would overtly answer from the perspective of a wolf LOL. It was a long shot so I'm not surprised it didn't catch anybody.

Anyway, on to conclusions. I liked EuchreJack's and Roden's answers the best. Both sets of answers were written wholly from the perspective of town, and I think that's pretty telling. As for wolf reads, I didn't get anything conclusive. I didn't like Toony's brief responses, but since he was the first to respond I have to assume I just wasn't clear about my intentions, and he did elabourate when asked.

[Magma Mater]

Oh, I liked Blue's responses as well, missed them somehow.

[Magma Mater]

Also, I generally regard laziness as a scum tell, and will try not to blame others for accusing me on similar grounds.

Yes, I know this is unfair, but scum do in fact use claims of laziness, work, exhaustion, etc.  And they're sometimes just doing it to avoid outing themselves as scum.

Ergo, it is a tell.

What do you think of webadict?

[Magma Mater]

Magma Mater - would you prefer a doctor or a bullet-proof in this setup?

Can I choose neither? 
I'd prefer bulletproof though, since I'd be able to play like vanilla.
Why did you ask this question?


Currently, my reads look something like this:
Roden likely town.
Blue slight town.
EuchreJack very slightly town. I like the tone of his posts even though the content is not great.

prefuzek I have a slight wolf read on due to the post where he accuses hedgerow of going for a policy lynch on Euchre. I also really dislike the accusatory tone loaded into the "how do you know what the hackers are going to do" question toward hedgerow in the same post. It seemed clear to me that hedgerow was only making a supposition, the purpose of asking this question is probably just to make a backhanded accusation.

Toony I have a slight wolf read on as well. Earlier in the day, after I asked him if he's a closed book, he responded that no, he tends to spill all of his thoughts on things. Given that, I'd expect him to be less resistant to sharing his reads. As it is, I have no idea whom he suspects since his main line of inquisition seems to end in EuchreJack confirming that yes, he was acknowledging prefuzek's accusation as true.

[EuchreJack]

In another vein, what do you think of Toony's vote on prefuzek? To me, that's also a vote without a real reason. What makes Toony's vote ok and hedgerow's bad?

Toony explained that his vote was to basically get things going.  Adding chum to the water, basically.  It's not a great reason, but at least it's a reason.  I've been getting a scummy read on Toony, but I've gotten the same scummy reads from Toony on past games where Toony was town.  Still a scummy read.
As for the voting state, I'm actually quite happy to see two candidates with two votes.  Very interested in seeing who places the third vote, and most importantly why.

Also, I generally regard laziness as a scum tell, and will try not to blame others for accusing me on similar grounds.

Yes, I know this is unfair, but scum do in fact use claims of laziness, work, exhaustion, etc.  And they're sometimes just doing it to avoid outing themselves as scum.

Ergo, it is a tell.

What do you think of webadict?

I think webadict rolled Town, wanted Mafia, and is just not interested now.  They weren't too keen on Roguelike either, and it was a custom setup and everything.
Not that we should clear webadict or anything based on that, it is just a random thought.

WARNING: I am a sheep

prefuzek I have a slight wolf read on due to the post where he accuses hedgerow of going for a policy lynch on Euchre. I also really dislike the accusatory tone loaded into the "how do you know what the hackers are going to do" question toward hedgerow in the same post. It seemed clear to me that hedgerow was only making a supposition, the purpose of asking this question is probably just to make a backhanded accusation.

hedgerow, how do you know what the hackers are going to do? Isn't it a little early for a policy lynch, especially in a beginner game?

a) Why are you assuming that Euchre is a policy lynch for hedgerow? As he's already said in-thread (and I even bothered to verify!), he tends to get killed by wolves early. I don't think it qualifies as a good policy to eliminate a player who is easily read without even attempting to do so.
b) What is your own reason for voting for Euchre? Judging from Euchre's later posts, I'm not sure whether the "looking town instead of hunting" comment is a joke.

Hm, now that you mention it, it is suspicious that Pref complains about Hedgerow's behavior but joins them in voting me.  Is that a cup of WIFOM?

Alright, one final thing: Don't rate Blue too highly as Town.  Blue might be a newbie townie, but they're an expert scummer.  Blue as mafia is perfectly capable of doing exactly what they're doing now.  In fact it reminds me of our last game together, where Blue flipped mafia (Roguelike).
However, Blue's quick jump on Hedgerow seems like a suicidal mafia team strategy if both were mafia, since it could lead to D1 hedgerow lynch then D2 town catching Blue as mafia and game over.  This means that the scum team is probably not Blue and Hedgerow.