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[EuchreJack]

@FallacyofUrist: Note that your predecessor's vote was on Toonyman.  You should probably clarify whether or not that remains.

Unofficial Votecount from the One who cares the Most (for obvious reasons):
(0) BluarianKnight
(3) EuchreJack- hedgrow, prefuzek, Roden
(0) prefuzek -
(0) Magma Mater
(0) webadict
(1) hedgerow- BluarianKnight
(1) Roden. - EuchreJack
(1) Rolan7- Toonyman
(2) ToonyMan- webadict, Magma Mater

[EuchreJack]

Oh. That was unexpected. I had a question for Web too.

I wanted to know, if he thought I was hinting at a PR, why he would openly state that. Why did he then also try to reiterate just how town I am? That's weird to set up a potential PR as easy night kill choice.

Oh my fucking god. Sorry, it took twice as long to write this because I had to stop by an emergency center so they could harness the power of my eyes rolling to power a small city.

Because hiding an obvious piece of information is for cowards, and it's exactly what I believe ToonyMan saw, making it a potential easy pocket. That's why I'll fully admit that I'm a Vanilla Townie. Or maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm a Doctor! Oooooo!

I mean, worst case scenario is I have to live with the looming knowledge of Christmas Future's vision. I couldn't honestly care less if it gets you NKed because it's not really my problem who is alive or dead at the end as long as the dead include two scum, and you should take heart in knowing that your death contributed towards that, because it'll keep the people I think are Townier alive.

But, my bad, if you'd like to jump on the wagon ToonyMan's looking to build, then I'll advocate for your death, too. Totally plausible match-up, given ToonyMan's projection.

[FallacyofUrist]

@FallacyofUrist: Note that your predecessor's vote was on Toonyman.  You should probably clarify whether or not that remains.

Well I like ToonyMan, so I'll unvote.

I do think reads lists can be useful, but you're a bit fixated on them, buddy. I'll make one at or near the start of Day 2. How's that sound? They're not the be-all end-all when it comes to player interactions. Really, they're a summary of the overall game state - and not at all a viable replacement for focused cases.

Here, I'll bribe you.

I'll make a full reads list - if, if and only if you post a case, voting for the player you think is scummiest. The case must contain at least three reasons for your vote and three quotes from different posts to go with it, and the reasons cannot include 'has not posted a reads list'. Sounds fair?

Please just do that, label it "gut reads list from last minute replacement" or whatever.  There are still players who have not posted reads lists, and you're setting a bad example by continuing to not do so.  I'm a little busy planning my funeral arrangements, could you help a brother out?

Do you really think people think you're scummy? I don't. You're just misplaying town. As far as I can tell, at least, and I'm pretty terrible at reading people. Still, you're pretty easy to read, so it balances out.

[Roden]

Jack, what are you even talking about here? You're not getting elim'd over the BP town conversation, and I'm not sure how you can even say it's connected. I'm not even the only vote on you. If your only case against me is that I voted you so I must be mafia, that doesn't really help town.

Is there something you have an actual case on? Because I've answered all your questions and you never responded to those posts.

[Roden]

You're panicking a lot for someone who isn't even in hammer range.

[EuchreJack]

You're panicking a lot for someone who isn't even in hammer range.

If the extension doesn't happen I'll be voting Jack before the deadline tomorrow morning. If it's a hammer vote I'll wait until the deadline.

Roden, which vote are you?

[Roden]

You're panicking a lot for someone who isn't even in hammer range.

If the extension doesn't happen I'll be voting Jack before the deadline tomorrow morning. If it's a hammer vote I'll wait until the deadline.

Roden, which vote are you?

The third? It's five votes to elim.

[EuchreJack]

You're panicking a lot for someone who isn't even in hammer range.

If the extension doesn't happen I'll be voting Jack before the deadline tomorrow morning. If it's a hammer vote I'll wait until the deadline.

Roden, which vote are you?

The third? It's five votes to elim.

And what does ToonyMan's vote if no extension mean?

[Roden]

You're panicking a lot for someone who isn't even in hammer range.

If the extension doesn't happen I'll be voting Jack before the deadline tomorrow morning. If it's a hammer vote I'll wait until the deadline.

Roden, which vote are you?

The third? It's five votes to elim.

And what does ToonyMan's vote if no extension mean?

Then you'll be in hammer range? You're not there yet, why not just defend yourself or explain some of the things people might have issue with? People might be willing to unvote or even vote someone else you're scum reading if you give them enough of a reason to.

[EuchreJack]

The Case of Town versus Roden:

First, Roden is blatantly lying to you about my not being in hammer range.  Note: It's 2:45am local time, and end of day is looming.  I should also be sleeping right now.

You're panicking a lot for someone who isn't even in hammer range.

If the extension doesn't happen I'll be voting Jack before the deadline tomorrow morning. If it's a hammer vote I'll wait until the deadline.

Roden, which vote are you?

The third? It's five votes to elim.

Roden fails to mention that ToonyMan has basically promised to vote me if no extension.  Ergo, ToonyMan's vote brings me to 4, not the 3 votes that Roden is trying to sell here.

Second, Roden is trying set themselves up as Your Veteran.  Sorry, ToonyMan is the Veteran, not you Roden.

If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

I like this idea a lot. It's a bit game-y, but hey the wiki acknowledges it's not a perfect strategy either.

I'm not a one-shot Bulletproof Townie.

I saw that strat too but I don't want to rely on it unless it falls in our lap. It just feels a little lame, which is why I originally only brought up BP.

So here you're discussing not wanting to rely upon a strategy that could be effective "unless it falls in our lap".  You describe it as "lame", why is that?

EuchreJack- He claims he's scum hunting, but I'm not really seeing it. His posts feel more like he just wants to show how town he is, but I also get a hint of being combative that doesn't seem like would come from town.

Where did I claim to be scumhunting?  Quote please!
Why can't town be combative?

It's lame because follow the cop is lame. There's very little deductive reasoning involved, and anyone who gets cleared is just there to be night kill fodder. I don't want to seek it out because I just don't think it's a good representation of Mafia and this is supposed to be a newbie game. However, if we figure out that it's our set up then there's no real reason not to do it.

As for the quote:

I also don't see the point in scum reading a player just because they roll the alignment often. RNG isn't alignment indicative.

It's called scumhunting.  I got a reaction out of Blue, now they can be examined for signs of scum.  In fact, I'm promoted Blue from Always Rolls Scum to slightly scummy for trying to buddy me (it was a weak attack on me, and they voted the same person as me, ergo I'm calling it buddying).  Liked the read list though.  More people should be doing that.  Surprised ToonyMan hasn't thrown that in green text yet.

I also just don't think town naturally thinks to be combative on Day 1. Aggressive, sure, I can see that. But combative town is rarely helpful when no one else is trying to fight.

Discussion of limiting tactics in the name of training newbies better in the top part of the quote, followed by telling us not to be combative.  Guess what? I'm naturally combative!  You try to kill me with a mislynch, and I'm gonna hit you HARD.  I'm NOT a victim!  Don't be a victim, Town!  Hurt the mafia!

Third, Roden is lying to you about why they are voting me.

SCUM LEAN

EuchreJack- He claims he's scum hunting, but I'm not really seeing it. His posts feel more like he just wants to show how town he is, but I also get a hint of being combative that doesn't seem like would come from town.

Hedgerow- Man their ISO is just weird. I don't see why they would stick out on purpose if they're mafia, but nonetheless I'm still not getting town vibes.

I don't think I can say I'm hard scum reading anyone yet. But as of now I think there's one mafia between Jack and Hedge. I don't think they're buddies though, and I think putting them on concurrent wagons will be more revealing than just poking inactive players with votes.

Vote: EuchreJack

Note that I am NOT their top scum pick (that would be Hedgerow), yet "putting them on concurrent wagons will be more revealing".  But, since I'm not voting Hedgerow, the state before Roden's vote is 2 on me and 1 on Hedgerow.  There IS NO WAGON ON HEDGEROW.  This is a blatant lie to 3rd vote me!

Fourth, the 3rd vote on me by Roden was PREMEDITATED (planned in advanced for those who don't watch legal shows).

If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

I like this idea a lot. It's a bit game-y, but hey the wiki acknowledges it's not a perfect strategy either.

I'm not a one-shot Bulletproof Townie.

I saw that strat too but I don't want to rely on it unless it falls in our lap. It just feels a little lame, which is why I originally only brought up BP.

I think mafia would be more worried about a BP not existing, tbh. If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

That's the point I'm making. It's kind of like the concept of a Fleet-in-being... in simple terms, ensuring that your opponent doesn't know where your power lies gives you a massive strategic advantage because they have to act as if the worst-case-scenario is true. In our hypothetical scenario where a tracker has claimed, it makes no difference whether the wolves know that there is a doctor or not. They are forced to act as if the doctor is protecting the tracker.

I don't really see the problem here tbh. But I don't think we gain anything out of arguing about it so I'll concede.

Side note but I agree that it looks like Jack seems more concerned with looking town than with hunting mafia. I also don't see the point in scum reading a player just because they roll the alignment often. RNG isn't alignment indicative.

Roden throwing shade on me shortly after the second vote.  Guess how many questions Roden asked me prior to posting this? ZERO

Fifth: Motive.  Maybe, just maybe Roden didn't like this question, which they never answered:

I don't think so. It's not about quantity, but quality. A bunch of revealing posts might spew a player as town - such as your play in Roguelike Mafia 7 - but it is not normally alignment indicative and I don't believe town PRs should reveal anything on D1.

I mostly agree. I think the Bulletproof townie should step forward though if they exist.

Why? To me, that seems to negate Bulletproof, and paint a target for mafia to try to mislynch them.  But hey, I'm still a novice (newbie game, hello?), so maybe you've got a really great theory on why that is good.

Toonyman did step in with an answer.  But what was Roden's answer, later on?

4. Chaotic. I typically get scum read because of this, but I partially do this to draw out mafia who want an easy mis elim. But I also do this so people have a harder time reading me for meta tells from past games. Despite this I'm actually kinda sensitive to getting scum read lol, but I only ever seem to get scum read over random comments I make rather than my actions. I want to try to find out why this is.

Interesting, but I feel like chaotic play is a good way to "catch" townies as well. A lot of people don't play to win, and just play to survive or try to get killed at night! In fact, I believe the most common style of play is "it's important to win, but it's even more important to not be blamed for a loss". This applies more or less to any amateur competitive team activity. In mafia, it sometimes manifests itself as an "anybody but me" mentality - that's how I played when I first started, anyway.

I feel like it depends tbh. It doesn't mean much if someone thinks I'm mafia, but if someone uses anti-town methods to try to get me or slips something they shouldn't have said, then I'm a lot more confident I've caught mafia. Not really something I'm going to try here though since I've already stated this playstyle.

I mostly agree. I think the Bulletproof townie should step forward though if they exist.

I don't agree with this, for a few reasons:
It tells the wolves which power roles exist. Information is power, and knowing which roles exist would help them with their targets immensely. For example, if they know there is no doctor or jailkeeper, they can freely target someone who might otherwise be considered a likely protection magnet. This is even worse if we have a tracker who is forced to claim... without the possibility of a doctor, the wolves can happily eat the tracker, whereas otherwise it'd be a bit risky!
Even worse, if we all agree that a bulletproof should claim, but there is no claim, AND the wolves have a roleblocker, well suddenly the wolves know the exact setup and we haven't gained anything.
Also, the argument that the bulletproof would require two nights to kill is not totally valid. It does require two nights to kill, yes, but if there are an even number of players at night and the other power role is dead, then what do the wolves lose by trying to kill the bulletproof? It would bring us to even numbers the next day, which is not really advantageous for us.

I will add a corollary: if there is a roleblocker and we manage to kill it day one, we should all claim on day two to get two or three confirmed town, and ride that to an easy win.

I think mafia would be more worried about a BP not existing, tbh. If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

There you have it.  MAFIA would like to know if a BP exists, and Roden asked the question.  I questioned the wisdom of the question, and here I am getting 3rd voted by Roden.
Probably not the best argument I've ever made, but it's now 3:08am local time.

[EuchreJack]

Have fun Roden, I'm going to bed

[Roden]

The Case of Town versus Roden:

First, Roden is blatantly lying to you about my not being in hammer range.  Note: It's 2:45am local time, and end of day is looming.  I should also be sleeping right now.

You're not in hammer range though. I don't really think hypothetical hammers should count, Toony isn't forced to vote you just because he said he would.

Roden fails to mention that ToonyMan has basically promised to vote me if no extension.  Ergo, ToonyMan's vote brings me to 4, not the 3 votes that Roden is trying to sell here.

I didn't fail to mention it. We just had a conversation about it.

Second, Roden is trying set themselves up as Your Veteran.  Sorry, ToonyMan is the Veteran, not you Roden.

What? How did you come to this conclusion?

Discussion of limiting tactics in the name of training newbies better in the top part of the quote, followed by telling us not to be combative.  Guess what? I'm naturally combative!  You try to kill me with a mislynch, and I'm gonna hit you HARD.  I'm NOT a victim!  Don't be a victim, Town!  Hurt the mafia!

I'm not limiting tactics? I literally said we should do it if it comes up, I'm just not digging for it since there's hesitance about a BP townie outing themself and it's kinda necessary to get everyone on board with that for the plan to work. The point is that if we can confirm that a BP townie doesn't exist, then if a Tracker exists they can safely reveal themself since they would be guaranteed to have a Doctor in the game to protect them.

Also, the reason I'm saying that being combative isn't too helpful is that if you're town and a townie scum reads you at any point, you waste time in a town vs town argument. If you're getting mis-elim'd, hitting back at whoever scum reads you isn't the answer. Finding scum is the answer, since town on town mis-elims just happen sometimes.

Third, Roden is lying to you about why they are voting me.

SCUM LEAN

EuchreJack- He claims he's scum hunting, but I'm not really seeing it. His posts feel more like he just wants to show how town he is, but I also get a hint of being combative that doesn't seem like would come from town.

Hedgerow- Man their ISO is just weird. I don't see why they would stick out on purpose if they're mafia, but nonetheless I'm still not getting town vibes.

I don't think I can say I'm hard scum reading anyone yet. But as of now I think there's one mafia between Jack and Hedge. I don't think they're buddies though, and I think putting them on concurrent wagons will be more revealing than just poking inactive players with votes.

Vote: EuchreJack

Note that I am NOT their top scum pick (that would be Hedgerow), yet "putting them on concurrent wagons will be more revealing".  But, since I'm not voting Hedgerow, the state before Roden's vote is 2 on me and 1 on Hedgerow.  There IS NO WAGON ON HEDGEROW.  This is a blatant lie to 3rd vote me!

Where did I say you weren't my top scum pick? I said there was likely one scum between you two, and I had to pick a name, so I picked the one that's been louder. My vote has definitely helped to reveal information either way.

Fourth, the 3rd vote on me by Roden was PREMEDITATED (planned in advanced for those who don't watch legal shows).

If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

I like this idea a lot. It's a bit game-y, but hey the wiki acknowledges it's not a perfect strategy either.

I'm not a one-shot Bulletproof Townie.

I saw that strat too but I don't want to rely on it unless it falls in our lap. It just feels a little lame, which is why I originally only brought up BP.

I think mafia would be more worried about a BP not existing, tbh. If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

That's the point I'm making. It's kind of like the concept of a Fleet-in-being... in simple terms, ensuring that your opponent doesn't know where your power lies gives you a massive strategic advantage because they have to act as if the worst-case-scenario is true. In our hypothetical scenario where a tracker has claimed, it makes no difference whether the wolves know that there is a doctor or not. They are forced to act as if the doctor is protecting the tracker.

I don't really see the problem here tbh. But I don't think we gain anything out of arguing about it so I'll concede.

Side note but I agree that it looks like Jack seems more concerned with looking town than with hunting mafia. I also don't see the point in scum reading a player just because they roll the alignment often. RNG isn't alignment indicative.

Roden throwing shade on me shortly after the second vote.  Guess how many questions Roden asked me prior to posting this? ZERO

I uh, don't see how this proves my vote was premeditated lol. But this is definitely false as I did ask you questions.

Fifth: Motive.  Maybe, just maybe Roden didn't like this question, which they never answered:

I don't think so. It's not about quantity, but quality. A bunch of revealing posts might spew a player as town - such as your play in Roguelike Mafia 7 - but it is not normally alignment indicative and I don't believe town PRs should reveal anything on D1.

I mostly agree. I think the Bulletproof townie should step forward though if they exist.

Why? To me, that seems to negate Bulletproof, and paint a target for mafia to try to mislynch them.  But hey, I'm still a novice (newbie game, hello?), so maybe you've got a really great theory on why that is good.

Toonyman did step in with an answer.  But what was Roden's answer, later on?

4. Chaotic. I typically get scum read because of this, but I partially do this to draw out mafia who want an easy mis elim. But I also do this so people have a harder time reading me for meta tells from past games. Despite this I'm actually kinda sensitive to getting scum read lol, but I only ever seem to get scum read over random comments I make rather than my actions. I want to try to find out why this is.

Interesting, but I feel like chaotic play is a good way to "catch" townies as well. A lot of people don't play to win, and just play to survive or try to get killed at night! In fact, I believe the most common style of play is "it's important to win, but it's even more important to not be blamed for a loss". This applies more or less to any amateur competitive team activity. In mafia, it sometimes manifests itself as an "anybody but me" mentality - that's how I played when I first started, anyway.

I feel like it depends tbh. It doesn't mean much if someone thinks I'm mafia, but if someone uses anti-town methods to try to get me or slips something they shouldn't have said, then I'm a lot more confident I've caught mafia. Not really something I'm going to try here though since I've already stated this playstyle.

I mostly agree. I think the Bulletproof townie should step forward though if they exist.

I don't agree with this, for a few reasons:

It tells the wolves which power roles exist. Information is power, and knowing which roles exist would help them with their targets immensely. For example, if they know there is no doctor or jailkeeper, they can freely target someone who might otherwise be considered a likely protection magnet. This is even worse if we have a tracker who is forced to claim... without the possibility of a doctor, the wolves can happily eat the tracker, whereas otherwise it'd be a bit risky!

Even worse, if we all agree that a bulletproof should claim, but there is no claim, AND the wolves have a roleblocker, well suddenly the wolves know the exact setup and we haven't gained anything.

Also, the argument that the bulletproof would require two nights to kill is not totally valid. It does require two nights to kill, yes, but if there are an even number of players at night and the other power role is dead, then what do the wolves lose by trying to kill the bulletproof? It would bring us to even numbers the next day, which is not really advantageous for us.

I will add a corollary: if there is a roleblocker and we manage to kill it day one, we should all claim on day two to get two or three confirmed town, and ride that to an easy win.

I think mafia would be more worried about a BP not existing, tbh. If a BP doesn't exist and we have an outed Tracker like in your hypothetical situation, then that means we have a Doctor and no Roleblocker. Doctor then protects the Tracker in secret and we're pretty much set to win. It's not quite follow the cop, but it's a safer alternative since Doctor + Cop does have a Roleblocker.

There you have it.  MAFIA would like to know if a BP exists, and Roden asked the question.  I questioned the wisdom of the question, and here I am getting 3rd voted by Roden.

Probably not the best argument I've ever made, but it's now 3:08am local time.

I'm not sure I follow the logic here tbh. You're jumping to conclusions and I'm not really sure how you got to any of them.

[Roden]

How does everyone feel about Jack atm? Because I'm actually getting defensive townie vibes at this point. FoU mentioned Jack could just be misplaying town, and I'm really starting to see it. I don't think mafia tries to build a case for a next day elim if they believe they're getting voted out on the current day. It would just be a waste of time.

Unvote

Toony, if your theory about Web is right then his slot might be town too. Unless you think it's possible Web would've tried to early pocket Jack with a town read.

In any case, I think pressuring Hedge next would be a good call.

Vote: Hedgerow

[hedgerow]

How does everyone feel about Jack atm? Because I'm actually getting defensive townie vibes at this point. FoU mentioned Jack could just be misplaying town, and I'm really starting to see it. I don't think mafia tries to build a case for a next day elim if they believe they're getting voted out on the current day. It would just be a waste of time.

Unvote

Toony, if your theory about Web is right then his slot might be town too. Unless you think it's possible Web would've tried to early pocket Jack with a town read.

In any case, I think pressuring Hedge next would be a good call.

Vote: Hedgerow

Well, I'm pretty sure there's a mafioso, and Roden is the one who brought up the BP, so it's either mafia working (between the two of them, with fewer lynch votes than we need), EuchreJack is silly, or someone did the process of elimination in private.

[hedgerow]

So I mean, no matter how we look at it, if we have a BP - and we do have a BP, I imagine - because someone went on and on about it.  The alternative is something else entirely, and depends entirely on how they eliminated the choices.

But we do know that we either have a tracker or a roleblocker, and I'd go with the latter because someone who I thought wasn't the mafia decided to apply 'pressure'.

Roden sounds like a townie to me, but on the offchance he isn't, someone can just tag him and see what he does.  Best of luck to the guy with the shirt.  Thing is, in that setup, he'd either be letting townies know about clandestine mafia activities with the tracker or ignoring the guy who'd literally have every opportunity to save a life, since the jailkeeper prevents a night kill by the mafia, and the pool either gets smaller (unlikely), the mafia ignores the grander pool (to which the jailkeeper's kill blocking is ineffective), or we have a tracker who wouldn't have wanted guys to ignore EuchreJack, since he was right on plan with that to a disturbing degree.

So that means Roden is a role or knows someone with a role, and I imagine only the mafia would know each other's role.  That being said, I can't assume they'd go for the mathematically-distinct approach, but the stylistic one, and I don't harbor ill will to any guy who wants to keep his vest under his shirt.  At its most effective, it tanks a bullet.  I mean, that's the approach I'd go for, and whether the mafia will stylistically kill one guy or we just save the townie, I'd probably vote towards the latter, and I don't know if Roden is a mafioso, a jailkeeper, or if he can't find the doctor, assuming there's a doctor, which there's no guarantee there's a doctor.  Maybe he couldn't find a doctor?  I imagine the doctor, like the potential jailkeeper, would want to keep his identity secret, since he would be targeted.

And that's the best I can do.  Knowing the way this game is going, I hope you guys figure it out.  I have to smoke a cigarette in a few hours or I'm gonna be pacing.