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Author Topic: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]  (Read 51233 times)

ToonyMan

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #735 on: June 11, 2021, 09:43:58 am »

@Jack:
I'm not trying to offend anybody. The Pref wagon was a misplay. Most of us are guilty of it.

@Jim:
I was in your exact shoes for Roguelike Mafia 6. This game feels very town sided because of all the items yes. Felt impossible as solo scum without crazy luck.

@Bluarian:
How many times have you been town? Twice? This is getting ridiculous.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:46:21 am by ToonyMan »
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Toaster

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #736 on: June 11, 2021, 10:00:36 am »

Also, BK is pretty good at being scum. It would help his scum game a lot if he could ever play a town game.

I rolled it up, saw the team, thought "Yeah, that's a cool interesting team," and it didn't even click until someone said it that BK is always scum.

Speaking of, Scavengers, how did you like your class?

I feel like the scum team gets less benefit from the random item game in general since they can't both night kill and use an item. Having more items was of less use and the innate qualities of the class I.e. kill bypassing or redirection resistance would have been more useful.

Interesting.  It'd probably be great for a non-kill third party, and I'm fine with third parties getting more utility out of classes; they typically need help. 


For the record, 6/9 players picked Random; I randomized everyone, then rerolled a random townie into Scavenger so that I could see both sides of the equation.  Jim's Scavenger was naturally rolled.

---

Web:

I can do 51% shorten.  I forget why I changed it, but I think I was just messing with the numbers?

Day start generation is an interesting idea.  The catch is that it contradicts your later point of item claiming; town can better coordinate the night traps.

Yeah, I was worried about Scavenger generation; they didn't get any rares but they got plenty of uncommons.  I could make them only get the extra item on odd days, but with the reduced percentages always.

I would be terrible at remembering to handle scaling percentages.  But I had another idea; keep reading.

Is 3% artifact too much, or just better rare chances?  Or maybe another 15% moved from common to uncommon?  It is pretty weak in shorter games, because one dud and you're stuck if you can't find a wand or staff.

True public public pool... it'd turn into a bluffing game as to who wanted to grab what, on the case of people picking the same item.  It'd also be much worse for me if I screwed it up.  I don't that adds enough to justify keeping it.


On classes, and Mafiakills:

I was trying to think of a way to handle the Mafiakill.  The bonus action's certainly a possibility; it's been done in other gametypes to allow a mafia power role to act and kill.  We could just allow this (and (especially) to kill-type SKs) as a possibility.  I also considered a "Potion of murder" but with a better name that let you also perform a Mafiakill, and either give each mafioso one at game start or give the team 2-ish collectively.  But is it really that hard on the town to give Mafia kills as a bonus action?

While I was considering that, I thought that perhaps many class abilities could be offloaded into starter potions (Rangers get a potion that blocks blocks/redirects for the night it's used, for example, but I think the warrior is fine as is.)  That's odd in flavor, but mechanically better?  The amount would have to be tweaked; if Rangers got one of those potions they'd be pretty terrible. 

Another idea is to put one (or two slots, to give it a slight bias) slots in each rarity that are "CLASS SPECIFIC ITEM" and if you roll that slot, you get a [rarity] item that's specific to your class.  For example, an Archeologist might have as uncommon a ring that further boosts their rarity levels, or a common potion that boosts their next item up one rarity level.  Priests might get a rare scroll that grants another player a revive that lasts until it is used.  Stuff like that.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #737 on: June 11, 2021, 10:18:14 am »

Hm, I'm reminded of KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid

One theme I'm noticing is that, the more complex the game, the easier it is for Town.  Complexity gives Town more information, and more information makes Town's job easier (and Scum's job a lot harder).  Just look at the ONUW games.  They were solved extremely quickly.

So maybe do away with Scrolls/Rods/Staves.  Or don't let them duplicate.  Then rarity is easier to gauge.  See if certain items are mostly junk for their rarity.

Potions are nice.  You can use them with other items/abilities, so they're pretty awesome.

Maybe the MTG rating system of Common/Uncommon/Rare/Artifact is one category too many.  What about Common/Rare/Artifact? It means Artifacts might actually appear (they're only supposed to look extremely rare, ideally one or more will actually surface each game). It also increases the divide between Common and Rare, so Scavenger would actually be equal to Antiquarian.

What about, for the item pool, either eliminating it, or making it a black market?  All items off the dead can be "purchased".  Mechanically, the players in sequence pick one item until they all have an item, the rest are deleted.  Whoever picked last goes first next time, or something.  All available items are publicly known, up to GM whether players purchases are private (pm) or public (in thread).  While this does "give more info", it does it in a way that is even handed: Mafia can play the system, and just not use whatever they get.

Since nobody asked, I'm kinda thinking Merchant sucked, but I didn't get to play long enough to figure it out.

notquitethere

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #738 on: June 11, 2021, 10:29:22 am »

I like the idea of a blackmarket in items in the public pool. It allows an extra tactical layer of play.

Complexity doesn't necessarily make games pro-town, but superabundance of information does. Compare with other role-heavy games like Supernatural or BYORs that aren't particularly pro-town. A crucial difference here between Roguelike and BYORs is Roguelike is a semi-open setup. All the possibilities are known and can be puzzled out. That said, I like this! That puzzle element makes for a fun part of the game and it avoids the unfairness of mafia having a secret I Win power which is a danger in closed setups.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #739 on: June 11, 2021, 10:46:49 am »

Quote
potion of murder

In keeping with the random item theme of the game the scum team could have a unique scum only item pool to receive items from when they quest that would give them their nightly kill ability (and the flavor would be the dark force they are serving granting them items to complete their mission). Kill effects could vary to keep the town on their toes, but tending toward the more regular nightkill would be the sensible option.

- Scavengers are OP af. Way too many items, especially since the decrease in rarity is almost negligible.

I'd suggest that this means that the common item pool has too much value, such that being more likely to get two items from that pool is too much of an advantage.
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webadict

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #740 on: June 11, 2021, 11:13:05 am »

I kinda think scum-only items and scum-only classes might both be helpful. Giving choices to scum would be a neat balancing strategy.

Also, yes, Commons are definitely strong.
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notquitethere

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #741 on: June 11, 2021, 11:15:50 am »

I think Commons being strong is good. Most players only get at most two or three shots at using their items after all.
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webadict

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #742 on: June 11, 2021, 11:20:50 am »

I think Commons being strong is good. Most players only get at most two or three shots at using their items after all.
In the context of balancing, this drastically boosts the power of the Town and also Scavengers. Scum do not benefit from strong commons, since they are in the minority.
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notquitethere

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #743 on: June 11, 2021, 11:24:23 am »

In the context of balancing, this drastically boosts the power of the Town and also Scavengers. Scum do not benefit from strong commons, since they are in the minority.
Scavengers might be a little OP compared to some classes, but then... they don't get a starting item like most other classes, so they have to survive to N2 to get a benefit from their class. I think that's fine.

Giving mafia more of their own tricks would be fine though.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #744 on: June 11, 2021, 12:34:07 pm »

What about my idea of eliminating the Uncommon category, so that the next tier is abundantly better?

webadict

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #745 on: June 11, 2021, 12:58:04 pm »

What about my idea of eliminating the Uncommon category, so that the next tier is abundantly better?
Band-aid fix.

The issue is likely bigger than that. Uncommons and Rares tend to be Common items with extra uses, and because of that, they tend to be better in terms of options to just have more items.

I would honestly want to make drastic item changes to make this a viable game mode, but not sure how appreciated that would be.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #746 on: June 11, 2021, 01:14:18 pm »

What about my idea of eliminating the Uncommon category, so that the next tier is abundantly better?
Band-aid fix.

The issue is likely bigger than that. Uncommons and Rares tend to be Common items with extra uses, and because of that, they tend to be better in terms of options to just have more items.

I would honestly want to make drastic item changes to make this a viable game mode, but not sure how appreciated that would be.
And what about my idea of not having scrolls/staves/rods of the same ability?

webadict

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #747 on: June 11, 2021, 01:34:56 pm »

What about my idea of eliminating the Uncommon category, so that the next tier is abundantly better?
Band-aid fix.

The issue is likely bigger than that. Uncommons and Rares tend to be Common items with extra uses, and because of that, they tend to be better in terms of options to just have more items.

I would honestly want to make drastic item changes to make this a viable game mode, but not sure how appreciated that would be.
And what about my idea of not having scrolls/staves/rods of the same ability?
I like it a bit, but I also like the flexibility of the system. I think if I did rework the items, I would rework the items so that Wands and Staves weren't upgraded items, but rather items of their own accord.

Scrolls make sense, they don't change. Well, they change a bit, but not in the design phase.
Staves become modifier items, allowing you to tweak an item in how it resolves, amplifying your magic items. You may have a Staff of the Undergrove, that grants your Scrolls  a 30% chance to entangle your target in Vines.
Wands, thus, become the multi-target item. They allow you to perform spells on more than one target or store stronger versions of spells (and not multiple uses of the same spell)
This allows for some tweaks to the item system to begin with, like allowing for more Rings/Amulets/etc.
I think in doing so, you can make stronger Artifacts that aren't win now buttons, but rather stand out as gameplay-modifying abilities, and thus make the drop rate a little higher.
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Toaster

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #748 on: June 11, 2021, 04:13:33 pm »

I think I see what Wuba is going for; something like direct alignment inspects are a stronger ability than a watch or a track.  I see its validity, but implementing it would require basically gutting the current item list and coming up with one from scratch, more akin to CYOM's tiered progression system.

I don't hate the idea but I hate the work effort involved.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

ToonyMan

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Re: Roguelike Mafia 7 - The Fall [Game over]
« Reply #749 on: June 11, 2021, 04:16:00 pm »

I mean, somehow this game ended up less broken and closer than some recent previous games that just ended up being town stomps.

So that's a success at least.
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