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Author Topic: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.  (Read 1698 times)

Orange-of-Cthulhu

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First, there should be at least one armor shop in human towns and all dwarven sites.

Secondly, you should be walk in the armor shop and say "hey I'd like to order a set of bronze gauntlets for a walrus man plus an iron breastplate for a crab man" and the armorer would go "oh sure, that would be X dwarfbucks for all that, it's ready in two days, that is inevitable I assure you!" You should be able to order anything an armor workshop can make.

The same goes for clothes.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 06:50:23 pm by Orange-of-Cthulhu »
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Wokko

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 08:31:20 am »

Good idea, +1, same for weaponsmith would also be good
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FantasticDorf

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2021, 06:44:59 am »

Extend this to NPC's who are able to tailor with discounts if you bring your own materials to craft it with and it'd work out fine.

Seems like a nice way to naturally bring about other topics, which then in turn could lead you to bigger things, like bandit forts who are disrupting trade between site neighbors causing a cloth or metal short-supply, the conspicous villian plan notes etc etc, or you just offer the material or trade inventories for a price and bypass that as a part of the world.
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Orange-of-Cthulhu

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 08:17:44 am »

Extend this to NPC's who are able to tailor with discounts if you bring your own materials to craft it with and it'd work out fine.

Seems like a nice way to naturally bring about other topics, which then in turn could lead you to bigger things, like bandit forts who are disrupting trade between site neighbors causing a cloth or metal short-supply, the conspicous villian plan notes etc etc, or you just offer the material or trade inventories for a price and bypass that as a part of the world.

It would open up for interacting with NPCs and sites in a more meaningfull way.

With your idea added, it might also be possible to show up with your broken armor and pay a guy to have it brand new again and maybe also pay extra to get it in good quality.

Then suddenly you need to not kill and steal in that site, as this is where you get gear. (I think eventually it will get to there being repucussions if you commit crimes in a site, maybe also in a civ, the craftspeople don't want to make you stuff anymore, instead they run away to call the police or something. And even if you are a super powerfull necromancer vampire and you'd have no problem klilling the military of the site, it would still suck if you could not buy armor.

So by doing this, you'd sort of set it up for the day when crime doesn't pay any more.)
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Azerty

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 05:34:05 pm »

Extend this to NPC's who are able to tailor with discounts if you bring your own materials to craft it with and it'd work out fine.

Seems like a nice way to naturally bring about other topics, which then in turn could lead you to bigger things, like bandit forts who are disrupting trade between site neighbors causing a cloth or metal short-supply, the conspicous villian plan notes etc etc, or you just offer the material or trade inventories for a price and bypass that as a part of the world.

It would open up for interacting with NPCs and sites in a more meaningfull way.

With your idea added, it might also be possible to show up with your broken armor and pay a guy to have it brand new again and maybe also pay extra to get it in good quality.

Then suddenly you need to not kill and steal in that site, as this is where you get gear. (I think eventually it will get to there being repucussions if you commit crimes in a site, maybe also in a civ, the craftspeople don't want to make you stuff anymore, instead they run away to call the police or something. And even if you are a super powerfull necromancer vampire and you'd have no problem klilling the military of the site, it would still suck if you could not buy armor.

So by doing this, you'd sort of set it up for the day when crime doesn't pay any more.)

Another would be how these contracts would be enforced: how to force the player to pay up or the craftspeople to work?
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Orange-of-Cthulhu

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 07:10:55 pm »

Extend this to NPC's who are able to tailor with discounts if you bring your own materials to craft it with and it'd work out fine.

Seems like a nice way to naturally bring about other topics, which then in turn could lead you to bigger things, like bandit forts who are disrupting trade between site neighbors causing a cloth or metal short-supply, the conspicous villian plan notes etc etc, or you just offer the material or trade inventories for a price and bypass that as a part of the world.

It would open up for interacting with NPCs and sites in a more meaningfull way.

With your idea added, it might also be possible to show up with your broken armor and pay a guy to have it brand new again and maybe also pay extra to get it in good quality.

Then suddenly you need to not kill and steal in that site, as this is where you get gear. (I think eventually it will get to there being repucussions if you commit crimes in a site, maybe also in a civ, the craftspeople don't want to make you stuff anymore, instead they run away to call the police or something. And even if you are a super powerfull necromancer vampire and you'd have no problem klilling the military of the site, it would still suck if you could not buy armor.

So by doing this, you'd sort of set it up for the day when crime doesn't pay any more.)

Another would be how these contracts would be enforced: how to force the player to pay up or the craftspeople to work?

Make it payment in advance, and they are coded to always make it and not try to cheat :)

It would be kind of funny if it could happen that when you come back to get the armor there is just a sign that says shop closed, and the guy bailed out of town. But it would be too annoying I think - if you want the armor to do some mission and this happens, then you have to make money all over again and find a new site to get it made.
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Starver

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 10:42:54 pm »

I'm more used to C.O.D., really, but then if I failed to turn up after the appointed time, or did but never paid, then I wouldn't be getting what I ordered, and Ug would (effectively) suck up the no-sale.

I'm not sure whether to balance it the other way. Even if it's not a "blank wall where the shop was" situation, I suppose the risk of at least awkward opening-hours and at most the absconding of the person suddenly gifted with a nice purse of money would be in keeping with a fully fleshed-out adventuring environment.

How about "half now, half on collection"? Perhaps the deposit fraction is fairly malleable, being related to your relative reputation in this scenario (for honesty, bloodthirstyness, whatever - whichever way, it would make them more... willing... to barter the initial fee downwards).
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voliol

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2021, 05:50:03 am »

Extend this to NPC's who are able to tailor with discounts if you bring your own materials to craft it with and it'd work out fine.

Seems like a nice way to naturally bring about other topics, which then in turn could lead you to bigger things, like bandit forts who are disrupting trade between site neighbors causing a cloth or metal short-supply, the conspicous villian plan notes etc etc, or you just offer the material or trade inventories for a price and bypass that as a part of the world.

It would open up for interacting with NPCs and sites in a more meaningfull way.

With your idea added, it might also be possible to show up with your broken armor and pay a guy to have it brand new again and maybe also pay extra to get it in good quality.

Then suddenly you need to not kill and steal in that site, as this is where you get gear. (I think eventually it will get to there being repucussions if you commit crimes in a site, maybe also in a civ, the craftspeople don't want to make you stuff anymore, instead they run away to call the police or something. And even if you are a super powerfull necromancer vampire and you'd have no problem klilling the military of the site, it would still suck if you could not buy armor.

So by doing this, you'd sort of set it up for the day when crime doesn't pay any more.)

Another would be how these contracts would be enforced: how to force the player to pay up or the craftspeople to work?

Make it payment in advance, and they are coded to always make it and not try to cheat :)

It would be kind of funny if it could happen that when you come back to get the armor there is just a sign that says shop closed, and the guy bailed out of town. But it would be too annoying I think - if you want the armor to do some mission and this happens, then you have to make money all over again and find a new site to get it made.

If the NPC has a selfish enough personality/low impression of you they should cheat you. Maybe not bail out of town though, unless they have some other reason to do so though, as they should have some commitments in town.

Azerty

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2021, 04:14:47 pm »

Extend this to NPC's who are able to tailor with discounts if you bring your own materials to craft it with and it'd work out fine.

Seems like a nice way to naturally bring about other topics, which then in turn could lead you to bigger things, like bandit forts who are disrupting trade between site neighbors causing a cloth or metal short-supply, the conspicous villian plan notes etc etc, or you just offer the material or trade inventories for a price and bypass that as a part of the world.

It would open up for interacting with NPCs and sites in a more meaningfull way.

With your idea added, it might also be possible to show up with your broken armor and pay a guy to have it brand new again and maybe also pay extra to get it in good quality.

Then suddenly you need to not kill and steal in that site, as this is where you get gear. (I think eventually it will get to there being repucussions if you commit crimes in a site, maybe also in a civ, the craftspeople don't want to make you stuff anymore, instead they run away to call the police or something. And even if you are a super powerfull necromancer vampire and you'd have no problem klilling the military of the site, it would still suck if you could not buy armor.

So by doing this, you'd sort of set it up for the day when crime doesn't pay any more.)

Another would be how these contracts would be enforced: how to force the player to pay up or the craftspeople to work?

Make it payment in advance, and they are coded to always make it and not try to cheat :)

It would be kind of funny if it could happen that when you come back to get the armor there is just a sign that says shop closed, and the guy bailed out of town. But it would be too annoying I think - if you want the armor to do some mission and this happens, then you have to make money all over again and find a new site to get it made.

If the NPC has a selfish enough personality/low impression of you they should cheat you. Maybe not bail out of town though, unless they have some other reason to do so though, as they should have some commitments in town.

What about a court system? Jurisdictions with more colpmex legal and administrative infrastructure might have easier contract enforcement.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2021, 08:25:32 pm »

What if a six-fingered man contracts with a weaponsmith to make a sword and then, when the sword is done, the six-fingered man shows up to collect the sword but refuses to pay?
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Atarlost

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2021, 07:36:47 pm »

This is a case where playability concerns should probably trump story. 

Pay C.O.D.  If you never pick up the craftsbeing doesn't care because the economy is not simulated with that level of fidelity.  If you want to rip off the craftsbeing you have to rob him as a separate transaction.  The craftsbeing can not rip you off because far more players will find it deeply unfun to have their time grinding wealth and waiting for the commission to complete wasted than will find it novel to try to get the craftsbeing blacklisted by his guild for defrauding a customer. 
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FantasticDorf

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2021, 01:59:21 pm »

If the NPC has a selfish enough personality/low impression of you they should cheat you. Maybe not bail out of town though, unless they have some other reason to do so though, as they should have some commitments in town.

If its a goblin you could as much probably wonder before you stabbed them in the face and prised it in their hands why they haven't attempted to rob it from you as soon as you paid for it. I wonder if it could be worked into a goblin site recruitment drive? If you infiltrate the place do you just talk to Snozz the armorsmith and just give you your dark-lord peon-army terrible quallity outfit with the others from the pile of junk they accumulate and scavenge?

Im sure Sam and Frodo going through Mordor would be a valuable inspiration on that front if you weren't a dark tower native yourself.
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This is a case where playability concerns should probably trump story. 

Pay C.O.D.  If you never pick up the craftsbeing doesn't care because the economy is not simulated with that level of fidelity.  If you want to rip off the craftsbeing you have to rob him as a separate transaction.  The craftsbeing can not rip you off because far more players will find it deeply unfun to have their time grinding wealth and waiting for the commission to complete wasted than will find it novel to try to get the craftsbeing blacklisted by his guild for defrauding a customer. 

Putting it on a pedestal in their shop for you to pick up for about a week's time providing nothing happens like it gets looted by kobolds or the town gets sieged seems like a gracious enough time-window and opportunity to retrieve it, if you travel a lot you'll probably be busy doing something within distance and the shop can be filed under a quest reminder of the shopkeeps patience.

Also the awkwardness of re-entering town under another identity, picking up your armor (perhaps even stealing) then having that information may complicate the transaction. Again i bring up, you might roll into your home-town with some steel bars you stole bought off a goods merchant, ask then get told that its beyond them and you need a (often dwarven) guild worker or that because it isn't really native to the area/civ to source weekly, you'll need X amount of it to finish a piece.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: It should be possible for animal men to buy armor in adventure mode.
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2021, 04:20:06 pm »

This is kind of a weird digression, but...

Dwarf Fortress is one of those rare games where I'd agree that putting realism first is actually better for it.

That said, realistically speaking, smithies are extremely unlikely to just be fly-by-night operations.  Forges aren't something you can just shove in your back pocket and ride into the night with, they're built into the foundation of a building you have to have built/inherited/bought/payed advance rent upon.

Hence, outside the (likely extremely rare) instance of a smith that would need to skip town for totally unrelated reasons, the only way someone might pull the scheme of running away with the steel bars would be if the person who you agreed to pay up front for a job turned out not to be a smith, and you never bothered to check that they actually owned a smithy.  The "skip town for unrelated reasons", aside from "goblins sacked the city" should again, be pretty rare in realistic settings, because people were not nearly as mobile in the middle ages as they are now.  You needed to spend your whole life building up a trade and a reputation in that trade that you're absolutely flushing down the toilet by pulling a grift like this.  A reputation in a town was basically the life's work of a craftsman, so most would be horrified to even consider lighting their reputation on fire like this.

In the case that the player does come across a grifter posing falsely as a smith who doesn't actually own their own smithy, there would probably be some tells that anyone who was paying the slightest bit of attention would be able to notice, the way that a vampire stood out for all those human skull ornaments and how if you asked what they do for a living, they say they worked as a ranger for 5 years and killed 600 humans doing it.  Basically, this would be a Nigerian Prince level scam that falls apart at the slightest inquiry.  In the event the player is duped by pure lack of paying attention anyway, though, it would be fun to have a quest where a player has to track the grifter down and bring them to justice.  You could probably have them as a topic of conversation you could inquire about, and a grifter that keeps on the run would probably leave a trail of people laughing and talking about how ol' Urist got one pulled over on 'er by the guy, and he might have gone further west, off to Oaken Pulley territory.

Inversely, the player is an untrustworthy drifter unless they're something like a hearthperson in the town where you're getting the forging job done.  (Your lord will probably be pushed to buy the goods in your place, which will make them angry at you, if you didn't come and pay for the work down.)  Having a good reputation might mitigate this somewhat, allowing more to be paid later, but some reasonable split on the cost would be made, like half up front, half on delivery.  If the PC doesn't come to pick up their sword in a reasonable time (and I'd say a month or even more is probably a reasonable time in medieval land, and that might also depend upon player reputation), the NPC can sell it to someone else to recoup the cost.

Again, reputation was everything to merchants in the middle ages, as someone who was a fly-by-night grifter once would often have to stay a grifter on the run from the law for the rest of their life.
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