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[BluarianKnight]

Hm.

honestly, I'm a tad stumped right now.


FoU - my statements remain true, previously, albeit I'm willing to change my vote.

We don't have a meta, or anything of that sort. I base my evidence on something simple - this;

My own answer: I have no information yet whatsoever about the candidates, but flipping a coin gives me Caz.

The luckyowl option. Not the strategy I would pick, but at least you flipped correctly.

The coin, and all that jazz.. seems to indicate attempting to breach new meta - and the frustration of that being pointed at as a scumtell does the same. This is not a traditional setup. To accuse people of scum because they're not following traditional playstyles seems insane to me. We have one day to vote, and two candidate, one of whom is scum. The Traitor only has to tell the traitor-ally who they are. Once they've done that, they just need to play Town, and get votes.

Web has not done this.

So either he's awful and throwing the game, or he is trying to FIND scum. On the other hand, Caz has done nothing beyond some reactive posting to punish his scumhunting methods. So I dug into votes, and saw my evidence above.

He's clearly telling NQT, 'hey, I'm the traitor, good job.'

After that, NQT becomes a clear-as-day scum ally, as you say yourself, assaulting the other side, without much evidence past 'ITS OBVIOUSLY WEB'.

And it's easy - Web fucked up, tried something new, got punished. I can see that and move past it, but I can see why you can't.

But, mechanicially, and read wise? Web's actions don't make sense as scum, Caz's do. That's why my vote's on Web.

[TricMagic]

Projected Results
Caz: NQT, FoU
Web: BK

4 hours, 29 minutes till day end.

[notquitethere]

OK did the promised read back. I was a bit busy earlier and put it off because of all the walls of text when it seemed so clear cut. But here we go:

#11 Web makes the Ellif claim. Ellif is Fille backwards but I don't think that gets us any closer.

#13 Caz weirdly hostile (often a town trait)

#15 Web makes the claim that the coin thing is a big tip off to me being the mole because of coin flavor...

#21 Web develops the coin lie some more

#23 Web pushes that the coin lie was a trap

#27 Web develops the argument about the coin. It's hard to follow but he seems to say that Caz would only know the coin thing is a lie if he was himself the traitor. But Web did lie about there being a coin with "Caz'd dirty fingerprints on it", so Caz's response makes perfect sense from a town perspective.

#29 Blu comes in and votes in favor of Web, but doesn't really address Web's weird lie scheme and instead insinuates Caz is buddying me, which is completely unsubstantiated.

#36 Fallacy sees some sense over the Web coin scheme

#37 Web develops his argument some more, saying a town caz would be denying the fingerprint angle rather than there being coins per se. But again, this is nuts. Because Caz just said Web was lying, which he was! This is really grasping from Web.

#46 on Web goes over the same nonsense logic

#49 Caz calls this kind of reasoning "NQT-level" which is rude but OK, I know what reputation I have here.

#51 Web calls Caz low risk. I don't think he's low risk, he's just not accepting the unmitigated WIFOM Web is putting  out. This feels like another secret appeal to my normal prejudices.

#59 Fallacy makes the same call I'm making

Then the thread devolves into some dumb tell stuff. Some more appeals to what a town!NQT really should know (Players keep doing this. This is a 4mask move.) There's a bit more to read but honestly this is giving me a headache and I don't know how much effort is worth me putting in when the answer is so blatant.

Fallacy- I'm still convinced from the that Blu is the traitor and Web is the bad candidate. What could change my mind? Blu backing Caz.

[webadict]

Blu, your reading is on point. I am impressed as usual. It's very likely we still lose, but you were right for the right reasons. Well, mostly. Technically, the meta arguments are a little shoddy, but that is me being picky.

FoU is wrong, but it is also for the right reasons. They believe that traditional scumtells work because it works on them. They are in their own head, and not in Caz's or mine. Mindmelding is a fantastic way to win Mafia, and it removes the reliance on traditional scumtells because, well, only new scum players really care about scumtells.

PPE:
@NQT

Ellif is literally in my role PM. It is in the day open post (I think?) It isn't anything other than that it is the sworn enemy of Fortree (the country I am trying to run for).

Also, lmao on the Blu backing Caz thing, that's as blatant as it comes. NQT, you know your goal should have been to play the neutral card. That is what Town NQT would do. You don't do that here though because neutrality would be giving me too much leeway to win over FoU.

You know you'd be using activity as an indicator. That's what Town NQT would do. You don't use it here because it would point towards me.

You know you'd be playing a better Candidate than Caz is. That's probably what you're thinking right now. You have one line defending Caz. That is it.

NQT is the Ally and anyone that can't see it should be disappointed in themselves.

At this point, NQT, you should consider quickvoting me 20 minutes beforehand and then swapping off like 1 minute before game end. It would be a better play than your current one.

[notquitethere]

These appeals to what a town!NQT would do aren't going to move me Web because I know I'm town and so necessarily everything I do is what I town!NQT would do. I don't have to slavishly try to apply analysis that makes sense in a long-form game to a completely alien setup.

Moreover, if we are doing the "appeals to activity" argument, then note that it's not a towntell for you to be active. See your high post count in Supernatural.

[BluarianKnight]

Fallacy- I'm still convinced from the that Blu is the traitor and Web is the bad candidate. What could change my mind? Blu backing Caz.

'the only way to get my mind changed is if you vote scum'.

That makes no sense unless your the scum-ally.

Legitimately.

If your opinion is really just 'you are mafia if you vote X', that's because you're the mafia, and trying to discredit town.

I'm open to changing - I admit that, but I won't just for your approval. That makes no fucking sense. You aren't bringing anything to the table past what I've pointed out as ally-tells, and the fact it's working is infuriating.

Please. Do better. Make up something, or prod, or something. At least make me feel like town's going to lose for a reasonable excuse, past you blubbering the same things over and over.

I'm seeing the same shit you did in MMMM, the same biased 'info posts' that all point towards an agenda. I'm not seeing Town!NQT. I'm seeing Scum!NQT. We were allies in MMMM, and I know your scumtells. You know mine. You aren't pointing any of that out, or trying to prove I'm mafia, past my association with voting Web. I've proven how both you AND Caz are shady and sucmmy, with what little I have.

[notquitethere]

At this point, NQT, you should consider quickvoting me 20 minutes beforehand and then swapping off like 1 minute before game end. It would be a better play than your current one.

This is an attempt to communicate to your ally, right??

Blu, I don't think appeals to meta are that good in this setup as it's a completely different dynamic. I'm not invested enough to put in hours of puzzling it out when the answer is between two candidates and it's so bleeding obvious which one. Also, I trust both you and Fallacy to be good players. If you're town, you'll figure it out.

But look, for real: do you follow and agree with the reasoning behind Web's coin trap?

[webadict]

Literally this NQT:

The only way you see Blu as not the Ally is if they vote for Caz. Then, by assuming you as not the Ally (or even doing that, whatevs) FoU is the Ally... And also voting for Caz.

So which is it?

[webadict]

At this point, NQT, you should consider quickvoting me 20 minutes beforehand and then swapping off like 1 minute before game end. It would be a better play than your current one.

This is an attempt to communicate to your ally, right??

Blu, I don't think appeals to meta are that good in this setup as it's a completely different dynamic. I'm not invested enough to put in hours of puzzling it out when the answer is between two candidates and it's so bleeding obvious which one. Also, I trust both you and Fallacy to be good players. If you're town, you'll figure it out.

But look, for real: do you follow and agree with the reasoning behind Web's coin trap?

You are right that it is obvious. It is FoU that just can't see that. I know you can. That's why it is obvious you are the Ally.

All four other players have essentially called you the Ally. Technically, FoU has said that it isn't for sure, so we can say 3 of 4 have. And, you know at least 1 of those people has to be Town, right?

Also, sure. I am communicating with my Ally. You caught me.

[webadict]

Sorry, I eyerolled too hard on that last sentence.

[notquitethere]

Literally this NQT:

The only way you see Blu as not the Ally is if they vote for Caz. Then, by assuming you as not the Ally (or even doing that, whatevs) FoU is the Ally... And also voting for Caz.

So which is it?

I don't know why but this is very funny to me. Literally chuckling away here. ("having fun is a known NQT scum!tell") You're right, it is a puzzler. But it would show that Blu is dynamic voter and doesn't already have the answers. But really, I just don't see that world. Your approach relied on really woolly reasoning about what a town player would say in response to someone they know is lying; and Blu just buys this, no question.

PPE: You wish I were the ally.

[BluarianKnight]

At this point, NQT, you should consider quickvoting me 20 minutes beforehand and then swapping off like 1 minute before game end. It would be a better play than your current one.

This is an attempt to communicate to your ally, right??

Blu, I don't think appeals to meta are that good in this setup as it's a completely different dynamic. I'm not invested enough to put in hours of puzzling it out when the answer is between two candidates and it's so bleeding obvious which one. Also, I trust both you and Fallacy to be good players. If you're town, you'll figure it out.

But look, for real: do you follow and agree with the reasoning behind Web's coin trap?

I don't. I think it was a stupid fucking idea, and Web shouldn't have done it.

That doesn't mean I think he's scum.

Why is my meta-argument bad? I think it has good basis - It's a different gamestyle, people shouldn't be looked at the same way.

I've laid out my case on Scum would act, and why I think Caz and you are scum. I have provided evidence for that, and examples of it.

At this point, one of us has to be the scum-ally. If it was FoU, he'd hammer, no worries.

It's not me, so it's you. I have decent evidence showing you latching onto Caz, and why.

I don't agree wtih Web fully. I don't believe he's a bastion of Town - I've stated that constantly. That's the difference between us.

You are willing to agree to Caz fully, 100%, must-be.

I'm willing to change my mind, given decent evidence. I've stated it, and I've stated my issues with Web.

But mechanicially, and by day-play, he is more likely to be town.



EDIT:

Literally this NQT:

The only way you see Blu as not the Ally is if they vote for Caz. Then, by assuming you as not the Ally (or even doing that, whatevs) FoU is the Ally... And also voting for Caz.

So which is it?

I don't know why but this is very funny to me. Literally chuckling away here. ("having fun is a known NQT scum!tell") You're right, it is a puzzler. But it would show that Blu is dynamic voter and doesn't already have the answers. But really, I just don't see that world. Your approach relied on really woolly reasoning about what a town player would say in response to someone they know is lying; and Blu just buys this, no question.

PPE: You wish I were the ally.

NQT. I might scream.

As stated above, I have my reasons for believing FoU isn't the ally. He'd jump on the scummier person.

I have my vote on Web to let him decide for himself. I won't unvote, because then Caz wins.

I'm returning to this post. Later. Got errand to do.

[BluarianKnight]

Literally this NQT:

The only way you see Blu as not the Ally is if they vote for Caz. Then, by assuming you as not the Ally (or even doing that, whatevs) FoU is the Ally... And also voting for Caz.

So which is it?

I don't know why but this is very funny to me. Literally chuckling away here. ("having fun is a known NQT scum!tell") You're right, it is a puzzler. But it would show that Blu is dynamic voter and doesn't already have the answers. But really, I just don't see that world. Your approach relied on really woolly reasoning about what a town player would say in response to someone they know is lying; and Blu just buys this, no question.

PPE: You wish I were the ally.

This makes no sense to me.

This is also a bunch of fluff.

NQT, your logic makes no sense. Let's lay it out - if FoU is the ally, he'd jump onto whatever ship was clearly scummier - so Web, in your logic. But he's on the Caz. If I was the ally, you'd be fine dropping me off, and letting FoU just vote for your 'very townie president'.

If you were scum, you'd want to get as many votes for Caz as possible - trying to play both townie off each other to vote for the scum.

Now, let's look at what you're doing - playing both townies to switch/vote for Caz.

Which situation I've presented fits the bill, hm?

[BluarianKnight]

Huh,, just realized.

FoU won't be back for game end.

So I guess you win, scum.

[notquitethere]

Blu, there's no hammers so your reasoning is off there. If you're not the traitor, explain what makes Fallacy the traitor.