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[webadict]

Actually, you would have survived if Caz had vanilla'd you. TricMagic had stolen NQT's auto, so it WOULD HAVE WORKED, since TricMagic was still alive.

fuck

I had thought you had it handled. Had I known you still had that tag you definitely would have been my target.

fuuuuuuuuck

It wouldn't have worked. Toaster had you Guarded, so TricMagic wouldn't make it through. It was a solid plan though.

[TricMagic]

I was cackling so hard over the Caz/Tric lover swap. The thing was, Tric absolutely could have saved Toony by claiming. As it was, town were mislead by me fakeclaiming the Lover effect was still active, and town buying it despite one of them knowing I was lying.

All to say, even a busted scum player can still have some bite in them in the day game.

Always learning. I suppose next time play my cards a bit less close to my chest. Doesn't help that I had Hat-syndrome with the Autos. Despite, you know, EVERYONE ELSE HAVING ONE. Not having one was inherently suspicious to me. As was only revealing you would know who Blue had targeted when they got blocked.

One thing would to make it so the Mafiakill didn't count as a spell. Since BK doesn't have a special spell for it, that means they'd have to do the kill themselves while the skeleton did a spell.

Why didn't you claim the auto steal on D2 Tric??? I was lying to save face after the Caz plan didn't work.

Other than being worried about being nightkilled? Double Trouble let me get Masonry., which made me less inclined to claim. Most of my spells being later than the kill doesn't help.

[BluarianKnight]

One thing would to make it so the Mafiakill didn't count as a spell. Since BK doesn't have a special spell for it, that means they'd have to do the kill themselves while the skeleton did a spell.

This probably would be the best way to balance it - that'd have still let me claim, but make me trackable.

[ToonyMan]

Some thoughts on the remaining town players:

I think Tric and Vector played as well as they could. Tric had some questionable points, but Vector was there to help.

Toaster played good besides that one critical goof of not guarding Jim.

Secretdorf...you seriously turned your brain off on D3 and stopped thinking. You were incredibly town based on your D1 and D2 play and interactions, but you built up so much bad blood in the second half you ended up somehow more shady than Bluarian. You know it's bad when Tric's case on you looks good. I strongly recommend to never stop thinking while playing, it doesn't matter how free the win looks.

[TricMagic]

Would Rebirth revive Caz if he was killed via the mafiakill?

[webadict]

Mmm, I am of the mind that Roleblockers having a check on them is good for them.

I would not make changes to the Mafiakill or dead player mafiakilling. The kill was mostly untrackable and unblockable, but it could be protected against by 4 different players, so I still would keep it. If anything, I'd probably go for body destruction with ToonyMan's abilities to counter it more (and hint towards it as a possibility)

Would Rebirth revive Caz if he was killed via the mafiakill?

Absolutely.

[ToonyMan]

Other than being worried about being nightkilled?

Hah, I guessed at the end of D1 in the mason chat that you and Secret were the last players I expect to die at night. There's a reason for this and I'm 100% not surprised I was right.

So no Tric, unless you claimed super cop you will never for now not be intentionally killed at night.

I think my original sentence here was too negative so I'm changing it to be more positive towards self-improvement.

[Secretdorf]

I thought we had won this.

See now, I dont have an auto.

[Vector]

I got completely snowed by the fact that no one was showing behavioral signs of lying or being solo scum on D4. It didn't occur to me that the mafiakill could be being done by someone I couldn't vote; to me, that was tinfoil hat thinking on the level of "maybe Web is lying to me and Tric is actually scum."

Reviewing my own play, what I have learned is that scum mediums may behave psychologically as though they are still part of a team, even when their buddies are dead. They won't act as though they are alone.


I'll be honest, I wasn't especially impressed by the scumteam in this despite their squeaking a victory. The circumstances of:

- being handed a LYLO breaker
- being able to coach their remaining member, even privately in scumchat during Day of the Dead, if the experienced players died
- being able to have an NK that was effectively untraceable by standard means

--> Any one of these things changes the psychology of the game a lot. All of them together really changed things; I couldn't mechanically scumhunt in the end and I couldn't behaviorally scumhunt.


I'm really disappointed. It was a fun game up until D4; I know it was Town's fault for losing, but I still feel frustrated by having not actually lost against BK. As Webadict points out, BYORs are supposed to heavily favor the day game. But BK did not play most of the day game themselves.

In terms of who did the groundwork, made the plan, and put in the effort, I'll sourly claim I didn't lose to BK, who wanted to post stuff verbatim from deadchat, didn't make their own strategy, and didn't even understand why their own teammates would draw fire; personally, I'm gonna say I really lost to NQT and Toony.

So, good game, you two.


Secret, next time, you gotta stop acting like you've got the game in the bag just because town is ahead. Treat every day like it's LYLO.

Reverie, I'm sorry about how things went.

Tric, please work on your day game.

[webadict]

I think it should definitely be a scumtell if the Medium doesn’t offer any insight of their own. Look at how Blu played when only 4maskwolf and Luckyowl were dead. They went for the fish, but didn't utilize the confirmed Townie for any information. Some of that may have been being busy, but the change up to the endgame style was certainly a bit more drastic.

I think this game might be a good lesson for Paranormal scum Mediums.

[BluarianKnight]

I got completely snowed by the fact that no one was showing behavioral signs of lying or being solo scum on D4. It didn't occur to me that the mafiakill could be being done by someone I couldn't vote; to me, that was tinfoil hat thinking on the level of "maybe Web is lying to me and Tric is actually scum."

Reviewing my own play, what I have learned is that scum mediums may behave psychologically as though they are still part of a team, even when their buddies are dead. They won't act as though they are alone.


I'll be honest, I wasn't especially impressed by the scumteam in this despite their squeaking a victory. The circumstances of:

- being handed a LYLO breaker
- being able to coach their remaining member, even privately in scumchat during Day of the Dead, if the experienced players died
- being able to have an NK that was effectively untraceable by standard means

--> Any one of these things changes the psychology of the game a lot. All of them together really changed things; I couldn't mechanically scumhunt in the end and I couldn't behaviorally scumhunt.


I'm really disappointed. It was a fun game up until D4; I know it was Town's fault for losing, but I still feel frustrated by having not actually lost against BK. As Webadict points out, BYORs are supposed to heavily favor the day game. But BK did not play most of the day game themselves.

In terms of who did the groundwork, made the plan, and put in the effort, I'll sourly claim I didn't lose to BK, who wanted to post stuff verbatim from deadchat, didn't make their own strategy, and didn't even understand why their own teammates would draw fire; personally, I'm gonna say I really lost to NQT and Toony.

So, good game, you two.


Secret, next time, you gotta stop acting like you've got the game in the bag just because town is ahead. Treat every day like it's LYLO.

Reverie, I'm sorry about how things went.

Tric, please work on your day game.

I would say that's a bit sour - I'll accept I didn't win alone, but I didn't JUST do verbatim quoting to keep in the good sights. I picked what to say, kept what I didn't want to myself, and even added my own spins to things. I tore a win that last day, barely, with mostly just my own conviction.

I did stay rather quiet for the first part - mostly because I REALLY did not want to get targeted.

[4maskwolf]

A thought I've been mulling over for a while, but I'm starting to be of the opinion that the elimination should be completely unpreventable and bypass all revives/extra lives.

It's something that a mod over on MU does, making the elimination bypass all extra lives or revive mechanics, and frankly I'm starting to see the point behind it. Not having the elimination kill whoever it's aimed at wastes the town's entire daygame for that day because they can't get information off of it and dooms the next day to be a repeat of the previous unless vigilantes are in play.

I had some suspicions about blue because it felt like they were just kinda there and not making use of the pile of confirms in their back pocket but a mix of lolCrohns and my last medium being lucky (who played... basically identically to how blue played this as a town-aligned medium) blinded me to how wolfy he was being. F.

I'm kinda sad panda because the only wolf read that was actually mine was wrong, NQT was a shared wolfread with Toony who did most of the legwork and FoU was a blatant sheep of Jim's case because at that point Jim was obvtown and is considerably better than me.

NQT, I didn't say it in deadchat but here's basically how I caught you:
1. Toonyman's list. Toony has substantially more meta on you and was confirmed town to me so I trusted what he said, and you played right into it.
2. Early mech. This was on Toony's list but something I noticed separately, you were offering up mech reads like they were candy on D1 which is not how town!NQT plays. It's an exaggeration but getting you to play D1 as town is like pulling teeth sometimes because your mech stuff doesn't really start lending results till EoD 1/D2, so it was weird seeing you offer up early mech reads unprompted.
3. Sheeping me on Jim. We just got out of a game where I used the same meta read on Jim to clear him and you disagreed strongly with it, insisting that he was evil, and in that game we were both half right. So I come into this game using the exact same meta read on Jim and you instantly agree with it? Incredibly suspicious, because I know from experience it's not a read you agree with.
4. Obviously, there was the mech. Revealing you knew Toony's role was a mistake because "has an N0 fullpeek on the mason and knows the mason partner" is literally never a town role in this case, even with the lovers drawback. That's a three player towncore from the start of the game which would make the game hellishly difficult for the scum.

[webadict]

I agree with that 4maskwolf. I think I was wrong for including the pardon at all.

I would say that removing the elimination is bad, bad, bad. Look at this game and see how horrible it is. I will admit it. I have no idea why I even thought it would work. I really don't.

I think, instead of removing the elimination, it should be focused on implementing Vengeful mechanics, where your role flips and you get some type of immediate counterplay to it. Much more fair for both parties, AND it can potentially be played around by Night mechanics.

[notquitethere]

Revealing you knew Toony's role was a mistake

Yeah this is probably right. I think I thought at the time that I could half-convince Toony I was on his side by showing I knew his role but wasn't revealing it to anyone. But this was obviously massively outweighed by his belief that a town player having a full peek on town mason pair was improbable, something I didn't sufficiently consider. (Well and by that point I'd made enough day game mistakes to bury me eventually anyway.)

As for the pardon: I think it was good for this one last time (because it relied on a meta belief that self-pardoning is something a scum player does, players didn't consider scum pardoning town to buy time) but no pardoning tactic will be surprising on this board after this.

[webadict]

Yeah. I think instead of pardoning, a role around giving a dead player that was just eliminated an ability might work better. Heck, a Mafia role around giving dead Townies a gun? That sounds very interesting, because it focuses on the Day game, but hands the Mafia a second kill they have no control over.

Hmmmmmmm... Interesting, but potentially unbalanced!