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Author Topic: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy  (Read 11271 times)

Stadfradt

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Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« on: January 30, 2021, 06:57:01 pm »

I've never experienced the dwarven economy, but I did look through the 40d description of it, and it's bad.

Things to note:
Individual dwarven preferences have to be established, and this means for everything including intangibles like simplicity, variety, and risk. These need to be put into a vector where pairwise comparisons ranks them according to preferences that are complete (everything in the vector is compared pairwise with everything else) and transitive. Varying quantities of varying goods produce a series of iso-utility curves, or just utility curves, and the spot where some particular curve is tangent to the dwarf's budget, that's the basket of goods they'll consume.

Even Marx and Engles understood that prices are what make economies work. (Keep that in mind next time some idiot is extolling the ubermoron Ayn Rand who thought it was greed that was the key component.) The player will not be setting labors. The dwarves will be choosing labors based on wages resulting from a Walrasian Tattonnement -- good luck modeling that. The cost of apartments will similarly be determined by the market, and rent will only partially be determined by how nice it is; décor taste, location, neighbors, noise, among other things will determine rent. Same goes for meals: You might find yourself buried under cheese roasts with butterfly sauce because dwarves prefer rum biscuits dipped in brandy pate.

I can guarantee that the highest-paid professions will be food and refuse haulers, and if that's not the result, the economy has been incorrectly modeled: Dwarves are going to pay good money to ensure they don't have to suffer a case of PTSD-inducing miasma exposure. Who's hiring these haulers? Good question. That needs to be answered, because the dwarves hauling rotting rodents and rank food are also the dwarves who'll be least affected by miasma, and they're going to have all the bargaining power.

What does the player do? Look at prices and open or close workshops when there is either a shortage or excess of goods. Prices, in an efficient market, are the necessary and sufficient tool for determining whether resources are being distributed efficiently. The player will make decisions regarding plant and capital to affect supply in the hopes of meeting demand. In order to optimize, the player needs to be buying inputs, too -- even if one claims the land and its resources belong to the player, one is still paying the producers of the inputs for their labor. And to make it real... well, see below.

What about players' mining, planting, and construction plans? Depends. You, aka the player, have to buy products from the workers at the market rate -- though some will be appropriated through taxation -- and sell 'em for profit. This means you, aka the player, have a budget. Who do you borrow money from? This needs to be answered, because your dwarves aren't obliged to build the defensive walls you so desperately need after raiding that necromancer's tower. They can leave, change their names, and migrate to another settlement. So you got cocky, kicked a hornets' nest, and need the miners producing stone, masons producing blocks, and everybody else building defenses at a desperate rate. Congratulations! Welcome to Price-Gouge City, population You! You better have a line of credit with somebody because you're going to need to fund a war.

Speaking of which, your legendary swordsdwarves are going to be hired away as mercenaries and are probably off campaigning for Urist McPutz-Noble a couple of mountains over.

You see, a fun thing about a realistic economy is that capital and labor are pretty free to move around; i.e. scram when you need them most.

Even more interesting is that we'll be needing dwarven entrepreneurs who'll petition the king for permission to mine, log, &c. under royal license, and they'll have valid arguments, because if you the player were doing your job right, they wouldn't be seeing great market opportunities. Your miners might be working for somebody else who has a great idea for housing and is paying them more. Your farmers may be on the surface growing rhubarb to sell to the elves. It's the king's land and minerals, and if he wants to give license to a guild of farmers who wish to turn unfriendly elves into allies by way of favorable trading, it's his prerogative to do so.

And don't get me started on market failures.

Long story short, a game of DF's detail, complexity, and emergent play needs either no economy, or an economy done right. Toady can understand the math: See "Microeconomic Theory" by Mas Colell, et al. From what I hear, the modeling is right up his alley. But it's a BIG project. Please don't half-ass it.

On the plus side, if the emergent play does occasionally produce a dwarf with intransitive preferences, it would be hilarious to watch. Urist McStressed-Out went into a strange mood, became economically irrational, and died of thirst because rum was better than wine, and wine was better than beer, but beer was better than rum, which was better than wine...
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Salmeuk

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2021, 01:42:45 am »

I feel like this would fit better in the suggestions subforum, or
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I highly doubt the economy would be implemented in a similar fashion to was came before. It's complete absence results in many strange and highly unrealistic situations, however it's implementation would also (likely) result in many strange and highly unrealistic situations.

I kind of believe the economy isn't necessary if only the farming was balanced. The return of a starvation threat would be so very enjoyable, and bring more meaning to the incessant manufacturing of goods most players seem to engage in.
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Cathar

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2021, 06:19:35 am »

I agree with Samlmeuk, this is the wrong forum. Just have my two cents however :

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

TL;DR : Modern economy makes no sense in a pre-industrial setting anyway.

Stadfradt

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2021, 04:56:49 pm »

Welp...this is dwarf mode discussion, but if somebody wants to move it, they can.

Quote
I don't understand why you bring post industrialization, modern economists in a discussion about iron age / early middle age era society where the economy is mostly informal anyway.

Because they already brought in post-industrialization geology and fluid dynamics. It's just math. Economics has nothing to do with the proletariat -- that nonsense is political mumbo-jumbo orthogonal to actual economic behavior. The models for an economy are there for the taking, they're as publicly available as Newton's laws of motion.

Quote
There are no proletariat in a gaelic village....

I'm bringing up economics, not politics.

I'm not putting time into pretending that the DF fantasy world reflects historical realities of social, economic, and political organization. For a start, the nobles would move away every summer because the mines would stink so badly. Ah...but we can only dream.

Quote
...and (litteral) debauchery is illegal in most countries.

It's spelled littoral and I have no idea what brown-water maritime law has to do with anything DF related.
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Starver

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2021, 05:41:19 pm »

My memories of the Time That There Was An Economy...

I think I mostly ignored it. If it caused me problems, it probably was much less than all the other problems I encountered. It was obviously far from complete(/comprehensive/sensible/meaningful) and I probably didn't even notice its withdrawal from the game for an awfully long time.

I may have made coins for the site, for a period, but I think I quickly learnt that it did nothing (or improved nothing) to have them. I also have long kept every dorf as active as possible, which might have helped with the 'notional earnings' aspect of the Economy era, and still do these days even though that has developed its disadvantages.

Plus nothing really 'happened' until a major Noble visited. I don't think that happened too much to me in the first place. I remember a was susceptible to many a disaster within the first game-year or two (c.f. my forum name[1]!). I know I did have to deal with Room Rent, occasionally, but it was never a game-breaker.



But it was a very basic and acknowledged as a half-way house solution to modelling an economy. I think there's room for something a lot more operable. You can't dismiss it as unworkable based upon the first iteration. Though what the new iteration could be...  It could be (fantasy-)realistic and workable, or it might end up at least as broken.

Probably needs a lot more thought put into it. It's very much Arc-level of development. Perhaps even need an Economics Major retained to piece together the right set of principles to make a working-but-playable-but-challenging-but-survivable(ish) experience.  It can't be ruled out, though.



[1] Because of the hunters and fishers being more trouble than they're worth.  It usually ended not long after I'd be getting loads and loads of messages of "Urist McHunter cancels hunt: Hunting for vermin"...
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2021, 09:33:26 pm »

I feel like this would fit better in the suggestions subforum, or
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I highly doubt the economy would be implemented in a similar fashion to was came before. It's complete absence results in many strange and highly unrealistic situations, however it's implementation would also (likely) result in many strange and highly unrealistic situations.

I kind of believe the economy isn't necessary if only the farming was balanced. The return of a starvation threat would be so very enjoyable, and bring more meaning to the incessant manufacturing of goods most players seem to engage in.
Dwarven economy is simpler to add. Just by code that used for bolts in quivers, but for coins in pouches.
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Cathar

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2021, 02:45:14 am »

Yeah, alright. Read your response and it's really inane. You haven't read any of the authors you namedropped and probably never played a game of DF. Good luck for your college degree tho.

wlerin

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2021, 03:44:59 am »

Quote
...and (litteral) debauchery is illegal in most countries.

It's spelled littoral and I have no idea what brown-water maritime law has to do with anything DF related.
Okay I laughed.

Rest of your posts don't appear to have anything to do with the dwarven economy, neither as it was nor will be.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 03:50:14 am by wlerin »
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...And no one notices that a desert titan is made out of ice. No, ice capybara in the desert? Normal. Someone kinda figured out the military? Amazing!

brewer bob

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2021, 09:44:11 am »

Quote
There are no proletariat in a gaelic village....

I'm bringing up economics, not politics.


You can't really separate these two, but whatever.

Salmeuk

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2021, 12:45:10 pm »

Quote
I'm not putting time into pretending that the DF fantasy world reflects historical realities of social, economic, and political organization. For a start, the nobles would move away every summer because the mines would stink so badly. Ah...but we can only dream.

but your entire OP is literally just that. An attempt at the critical analysis of Dwarf Fortress game mechanics through the application of college-level economic theory. You can't cleanly separate 'the world' and 'the economy' and expect good results.

Quote
There are no proletariat in a gaelic village....

I'm bringing up economics, not politics.


You can't really separate these two, but whatever.

Anytime I hear the above "economics are separate from politics" I feel very concerned for future generations. Please leave your chicago school out of Dwarf Fortress thanks lol
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DontMineYellowSnow

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2021, 12:47:11 pm »

Yeah, alright. Read your response and it's really inane. You haven't read any of the authors you namedropped and probably never played a game of DF. Good luck for your college degree tho.

To be fair, Ayn Rand's book (Atlas Shrugged, haven't read any of her other stuff) is a real slog to read.  She desperately needed an editor.

Anyways, please bring back the Dwarven economy so my Dwarves can hoard and covet vast amounts of coins.  I always build my forts with big vaults for treasure, it would be nice if they were more interactive.  And don't worry about...whatever this thread is.  Its a video game, not the OP's first Macroeconomics course.  Just make it fun.
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anewaname

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2021, 03:21:06 pm »

Politics decide who will do work and what they will receive for it. There is no separation of the two, in any form of governance of a group and in a group of any size. A corollary is that everyone is a politician, even if they are bad at it.
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Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Starver

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2021, 06:08:30 pm »

Politics and Economy have an overlap (how big depends upon the form and scope of politicing and the form and scope of economising) but there are things that are political without (more than incidental) economic aspects, and vice-versa.

So not really the same thing. The people doing PPE at Oxbridge are combining three entire subjects (Polyphenyl ether Politics, Philosophy and Ecomonics), albeit with the expectation that they'll find them all useful in their future vocations.
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anewaname

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2021, 07:23:07 pm »

Right, I am not trying to say they are the same thing, just that they are always linked. There doesn't need to be a large group for people, or more than incidental economic benefits.
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Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Garrie

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2021, 09:55:52 pm »


It's spelled littoral and I have no idea what brown-water maritime law has to do with anything DF related.

I don't think anyone was talking about the sea-side.
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Is there any way to remove mud outdoors?
Yea, use dirt roads to clear off the mud.
Garrie.
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