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Author Topic: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy  (Read 10839 times)

k9wazere

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2021, 02:07:44 pm »

I don't think I ever experienced the Dwarven Economy. Was it !fun!?

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Thisfox

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2021, 05:53:41 pm »

My greatest problem with it back when it happened was the FPS death soon after the noble strolled in. Yes, I am one of those people who made a lot of coins instead of just using coinless economy. That was a mistake. I mean, you can read about it here but it wasn't any different to any other major update chaos, and in my opinion has been demonised since. Plus, people seem to be mistaking "economy" for "social darwinistic capitalism", or even just turning it into a massive discussion of modern economics. It is a Mountainhome made out of a molehill, and will no doubt work better now computers are faster, and with one or two tweaks.
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2021, 09:51:58 pm »

I say rework it and put it on a slider for variety. Toady talked about that sort of thing for the myth and magic arc, so I['m sure he's looking at it for other things too. As for the op . . .

I'm gonna talk in game terms. The op talked about things like dwarves getting the willpower to come and go off the map as they please, and an economy advanced enough for dwarves to get paid for their work by the player. as well as for you the player to take out loans. That requires an account for the player. Before we even get that far, we need to be able to pin down who the player even is in the game. Now, I ain't talking about a single answer for everyone. I think the perfect place to answer the "who are we?" question is in starting scenarios, which we know Toady has talked about. Once we have a way of defining ourselves within the game, sure, start looking at economic options. Although I'd prefer if that waited for Toady to sync adventure and fortress mode time scales so we can get the rest of the economic jobs ported over to adventure mode. It'd flesh out the base building there and let us truly run a fort from ground level.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2021, 04:46:39 pm »

It's kind of hilarious that you think this isn't political, because this whole thing is written purely upon assumptions that dwarven politics are exactly the same as the modern world's, as mentioned before.  Saying this "isn't political" is the same as saying you aren't aware of how deeply ingrained your political assumptions really are that you cannot even recognize them as assumptions, but simple inviolable laws of the universe, instead.

The big problem with the old economy was found in three parts: 

The first and ultimately most meaningful was that the economy was far too inflexible and did not react to the actual needs of dwarves.  (In TV Tropes terms, Karl Marx Hates Your Guts, amusingly enough.)  All that changed was that things like simple stone crafts, whose value is still fixed and hyper-inflates based upon quality, are now property to be sold by merchant dwarves who can randomly set up shops.  Dwarves can now buy the crafts they want, but most can't afford the price of the stupidly expensive all-masterwork crafts fortresses tend to put out under a player economy.  Players need to either actively put less experienced dwarves in charge of making anything that needs to be purchased to keep prices down, or else just go for legendary on every dwarf, because legendaries are exempt from the economy.  (And ultimately, the latter isn't that different from having no economy at all.)

The second was that there were no re-stacking rules.  Nobody put things in bags, there were no rules for things like wheelbarrows yet, etc.  Dwarves would drop coins on the floor in their room, quickly run out of floorspace, drop coins in the hallway outside their rooms, run out of floorspace in the hallway, and as coins broke down into smaller and smaller denominations, you'd have tens of thousands of individual coins carpeting the floor.  Dwarves would only pick up coins when they wanted to buy something, meaning they'd run to the hallways near their rooms to start gathering coins before buying a new shirt, dump those coins at the store, wear the new clothes, then drop their old clothes on the floor in the hallway to gradually rot away.

The third was that the economy hypothetically should reward dwarves for taking more valuable jobs, yet it doesn't.  Just like how there are static prices of goods, there are static prices for labors, and labors like hauling pay less than labors like stonecarving.  They were paid something like 5 DBs to haul a boulder, no matter the distance, even if it took all day, while a stonecarver might sit in a workshop 5 steps from the stone stockpile.  Distance traveled is by far the biggest determinant in the time it takes to complete any task as a dwarf becomes more skilled, so a hauler can never haul enough to pay their rent, while a craftsdwarf with even the most basic of efficient fortress layout is going to be rolling in dough.  Likewise, dwarves in the current game do not select their jobs, they're assigned by the player, so this means that the player has to micromanage who gets certain jobs in order to see each dwarf has enough money to eat, or else they're creating a permanent underclass of "unskilled labor" haulers that can't afford to eat, while the permanent workers all rocket up to legendary and never having money worries again.

Now, all of these are pretty blatantly the result of a lot of placeholders in the game, so complaining that a feature that was taken out because the supporting features needed to make it make sense weren't there shouldn't be put back in because you aren't even considering that the supporting features might ever be put in is kind of ignoring the core of the issue.

If you want to talk solutions to some of these problems, I have a rather old suggestion thread, Class Warfare, that discusses the topic of making the economy make sense to bring increasing complexity to dwarven society as a fortress matures.

However, to cut the whole thread I wrote short and go to the specific topic of how the economics of a medieval community works, you should try reading someone like David Graeber, rather than economics philosophers talking about modern theory.

For example, nobody in the medieval world tended to use coin money when trading with their own town.  There wasn't nearly enough metal in the ancient world to support a physical cash currency system.  (And we use fiat currency in the modern day because even with modern mining techniques, there STILL isn't enough metal in the world to mint into coins.)  At most, they would use tally sticks to cover large debts, but most intra-town transactions worked on credit or the honor system.  No, not the one where you are honor to put a quarter in the box for your bagel, the one where it's fine to ask your neighbor for some eggs if he's got some spare, but it's an affront to your honor to let a debt go unpaid for too long.  (And hey, dwarves and honor are a good combo!)  Since this is a computer, and we have exact change, this will be more exact than actual notions of honor, but you could easily just have an intangible honor system where doing work for the fortress builds up an intangible stockpile of honor that can be traded for goods and services.  Everybody just mentally keeps track of who owes who what, and the exact prices weren't really kept track of, but it's vidya gaems, so it can be super precise because computers don't fudge well.  The members of the same fortress don't need currency to trade because it's presumed that everyone is going to eventually balance out all their debts with one another as everyone is mutually interdependent upon one another, and if they don't match up exactly, nobody should complain too much because they're all your friends and family, so what's not paying back one borrowed egg over a lifetime, anyway?

Coins are only necessary when trading with someone to whom a long-term debt cannot be expected to be balanced.  That basically means traveling merchants (which had a really negative reputation throughout history specifically because they were the one class of people that didn't share this presumption of repaying all debts, and cared about sinful things like money like only nobles, merchants, and criminals do), plus travelers that visit your tavern (who were also historically viewed with great deals of suspicion).  Coins are almost exclusively the purview of merchants and soldiers.  (In fact, most precious metal would historically be turned into things like statues of the Buddha or crucifixes during times of peace as the temples - the only institution that does not spend what they tax, and hence are a leech on the economy - naturally consumed all the coinage in tithes, only to have those statues melted down and turned back into coins during times of war.  You can't distribute a statue, but melting a statue into coins allows divvying up the loot for all the soldiers you promised would get rich following you into war.  Of course, it's bad form to melt statues from your own religion, so let's go sack another religion's temples to pay for our army.  Gee, that leads to the easiest way to pay debts to be to launch a holy war, doesn't it?  Even nobles ran entirely on ledgers of debts, as their actual material income in taxes was generally agricultural goods paid in kind.  Honor-debt-"currency" is inherently personal and carries one's reputation with it, while coins are inherently self-laundering money.  Nobody knows how you got it, so the more coins are in circulation, the easier it is to be a criminal, and hence the more violent and crime-ridden the time period.)

No matter how you look at it, using coins for intra-fortress trading was wrong from top to bottom both from a gameplay and historical standpoint, anyway, so there's no reason to bring that part of the game back at all.

(Edited to correct for mistaking "inter-" for "intra-")
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 11:21:58 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2021, 09:03:38 pm »

I agree with your points. I only have one quibble: Inter means between two different things, intRA means within one's self. I think you keep using the word inter-fort when you mean intra-fort.
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Starver

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2021, 09:52:28 pm »

Well, if "inter-town" (intra-town) was meant as "inter-townie", it worked as intended as a description.

I've got very little to say pro-/anti-Economy that hasn't already been said (perhaps by me), but I can offer up this linguisto-etymological addendum for consideration.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2021, 10:25:19 pm »

I agree with your points. I only have one quibble: Inter means between two different things, intRA means within one's self. I think you keep using the word inter-fort when you mean intra-fort.

You're right, thanks, corrected that.
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2021, 11:09:35 pm »

You're welcome.

From a pure fortress mode perspective, I would definitely want the economy question to have variable answers. If I were JUST running a fort, I'd want to turn off the interpersonal element and just be able to affect the wider economy of my Kingdom through my economic efforts. Right now, we can't. We can't tame new animals to the point future embarks from that civ could actually bring them along at the start yet. I'd want to be able to export stuff and have it affect the rest of the Kingdom. Export large amounts of masterwork weaponry and learn that it turned the tide in the war without my own troops having to go out. ]

On the flipside, if we get the two modes synced up so we could actually live a full in-game life as a citizen of our own fort? Yeah, I'd want the economy on so I could set up a business and eventually work my way into founding a settlement as a person instead of a disembodied force. Right now we're way too limited on that to be worth it yet. But we're getting further with every major release.
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postfux

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2021, 05:59:44 am »

May as well throw in my 5c because I think DF economy is one of the biggest challenges for DF.

I dont see a way how a Fortress economy could work without a working world economy. It will either be highly scripted or fail because it cant be sufficently sripted.

In a world where the production of soap is as complicated as the production of high end weaponry, cleaning fish is on a level with melting ore, and where the player can build within a few years an industry that can flood the world with whatever he chooses to produce no realistic in the sense of immersive economy is possible within the fort.

I would love a working economy but prefer the current centralized slave economy to anything necessarily scripted and/ or flawed. A centralized slave economy is dwarfy after all.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2021, 12:51:37 pm »

May as well throw in my 5c because I think DF economy is one of the biggest challenges for DF.

I dont see a way how a Fortress economy could work without a working world economy. It will either be highly scripted or fail because it cant be sufficently sripted.

In a world where the production of soap is as complicated as the production of high end weaponry, cleaning fish is on a level with melting ore, and where the player can build within a few years an industry that can flood the world with whatever he chooses to produce no realistic in the sense of immersive economy is possible within the fort.

I would love a working economy but prefer the current centralized slave economy to anything necessarily scripted and/ or flawed. A centralized slave economy is dwarfy after all.

Well, in the current system, weapons aren't given a higher value than anything else, anyway.  The most valuable items in the game are masterwork roasts, which have greater value than whole castles.

In real life, weapons and armor had higher value than other goods mostly because more effort was put into them.  A simple hatchet would still be cheap, but a high-quality battleaxe would be so expensive nobles would pass them down from generation to generation.

If you wanted to simulate that kind of situation, what you'd really want to do is make a system of upgrades that work like decorations do currently, where you can put incredible amounts of labor and wealth into diminishing returns in terms of a tiny increase in attack speed or damage, but where the value of the weapon just keeps ballooning with every upgrade.  There are also mods out there which make the whole process of making just about everything involve vastly more detail.  (I.E. making plate armor takes a dozen different tasks spread out over half a dozen workshops.)

Also, it's a common mistake in games to think that you're simulating "Supply and Demand" when you just model supply.  If you make the world's only throne made entirely of earwax, there shouldn't be that much of a market for such things, and even if it's the only one, there shouldn't be a huge... well, DEMAND for one, so it wouldn't have value.  Meanwhile, crossbow bolts can probably be stockpiled in stupidly huge quantities without massively depleting demand, since they never spoil, store easily, and you can go through tons of them rapidly.

And finally, Dwarf Fortress isn't slavery, it's communism.  It's outright anarchy until there's a mayor nominally in charge.  Remember, you're not supposed to be Armok like people try to say occasionally, you're supposed to be the collective consciousness of the dwarves, themselves.  They're working for their own communal wellbeing, and hypothetically, you should be, too.
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postfux

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2021, 03:29:09 pm »


Well, in the current system, weapons aren't given a higher value than anything else, anyway.  The most valuable items in the game are masterwork roasts, which have greater value than whole castles.

In real life, weapons and armor had higher value than other goods mostly because more effort was put into them.  A simple hatchet would still be cheap, but a high-quality battleaxe would be so expensive nobles would pass them down from generation to generation.

If you wanted to simulate that kind of situation, what you'd really want to do is make a system of upgrades that work like decorations do currently, where you can put incredible amounts of labor and wealth into diminishing returns in terms of a tiny increase in attack speed or damage, but where the value of the weapon just keeps ballooning with every upgrade.  There are also mods out there which make the whole process of making just about everything involve vastly more detail.  (I.E. making plate armor takes a dozen different tasks spread out over half a dozen workshops.)

Also, it's a common mistake in games to think that you're simulating "Supply and Demand" when you just model supply.  If you make the world's only throne made entirely of earwax, there shouldn't be that much of a market for such things, and even if it's the only one, there shouldn't be a huge... well, DEMAND for one, so it wouldn't have value.  Meanwhile, crossbow bolts can probably be stockpiled in stupidly huge quantities without massively depleting demand, since they never spoil, store easily, and you can go through tons of them rapidly.

And finally, Dwarf Fortress isn't slavery, it's communism.  It's outright anarchy until there's a mayor nominally in charge.  Remember, you're not supposed to be Armok like people try to say occasionally, you're supposed to be the collective consciousness of the dwarves, themselves.  They're working for their own communal wellbeing, and hypothetically, you should be, too.

Slaves are working for the communal wellbeing. Not of their own choosing and their share in it is unsatisfying most of the time.

Communism is slavery. Thats why they had to build a wall in the end.

Similar to Stalin most overseers build atom smashers for the communal wellbeing. Thinking about the fates of nobles perhaps DF is a communism simulator.

Trying to implement an economy in the current system is like Stalin trying to allow limited markets. It will fail.

For instance trying to implement a complex concept like rent to create a "fortress economy" without first having a working world economy most likely wouldnt even deserve the name of rent. It will become rather a living quarters tax deducted from income beeing completely arbitraryly assigned either from the overseer or a fixed game mechanic.

I am 100% with you on the supply and demand thing. There has to be a price building element on the world level based on it. Scarcity makes prices rise (mostly for useful things, with earwax thrones beeing a possible exception) while flooding the world with unspoiling masterworks roasts must lead to prices falling significantly. Thats an economy. Then there is a value for/ from labor and materials. Right now there is no basis for such an economy.

Productivity is completly insane and unbalanced. Building and working a fishery aka as a wooden block and a knife takes as much effort and knowledge as building and working a smelter. Bone trinkets can buy the world.
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Starver

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2021, 04:30:38 pm »

Communism is slavery. Thats why they had to build a wall in the end.
The Soviet-era command-economy was more bureaucratic totalitarianism than actual slavery. Not any more actual slavery as enterprises that used Company Scrip, which was a clearly capitalist situation.

It's the authoritarianism and top-down privileges (skewed distortions of the hoped-for social reformations of the Revolution(s), giving a "Hail the new boss, same as the old boss!" effect) that largely required (and enabled) the Iron Curtain. Some would say "it was inevitable", of course, because all other socialist states developed their own flavours of the same dtift and also (but maybe subtler to those involved, because fish may not have a word for 'water') trends in that direction arose in all non-communist revolutions too. But that's a tricky subject.


Dwarven Economy was, as it happens, a Scrip-like system, which could be run 'on account' if you refused to mint the additionally-troublesome coinage. In those who got sucked into low-happiness states it very much became "You load sixteen tons and what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt" and "I owe my soul to the company store..." But was far from complete in modelling all circumstances (or the ability of the player to enact better/worse forms of indenture), which is where it largely failed.

Right now, I still know I can (and often do) process all non-signature[1] stone into crafts purely for trade, even though it's not the best mark-up. (I don't trade meals ever, because I've been made perpetually paranoid about starvation, even after I no longer regularly lived up to my chosen username.) If other sites ever had the capacity to think critically about it, I could imagine them going "Oh no! Not another pair of masterwork mudstone earrings? Put them with all the other mudstone items, over there in the Remaindered bins full of the junk the traders insist on dragging away from The Fort Of Starver. Every. Single. Year!"...

I also do treat traders with items asked for in their side of the trade-liaisoning process (if it's not something on my personal list of Never-Trade things, mostly food and anything of an ultimately useful metal), but the elves tend to walk off with every mudstone/whatever item I have that isn't worth keeping this season in anticipating the inexplicable 'desire' for the dwarven wagon to haul away amulets/etc on their next visit.


[1] I'll tend to decide what kind of block I make my surface walls/rooves off by what interesting (but sufficient) stone I encounter in my initial exploration shafts, some coloured ones for colour-coded levers/etc, flux reserved for flux (except marble, which I might (part-)use for attempted posh fhrniture), any noble's preference get prepared to pander to, etc, etc. This usually leaves a common stone that I then have horrific amounts of but doesn't feature anywhere else in my self-set uniformity.
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postfux

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2021, 03:14:30 am »

Capitalism for sure also did and to some extent still does produce slavery. Being legally reduced to property is only the most extreme form of slavery. As soon as someone is in a position to have to accept being treated like property (be it by the state or by an "employer") he is a slave in everything but in name.

As for DF I am not a veteran of the old economy but I do fear it cannot work to try to introduce complex systems like money and rent without having something resembling a real value based economy.

Right now my first trade good are stone trinkets because it can be set up pretty easy. I give up on it as soon as I have a working meat industry because I can now flood the world market with my refuse and exchange it against exotic goods and iron and steel products for use or melting. Melting an outragously expensive «☼steel ueseless thing☼» to produce low quality boots is a good thing, espacially since I bought it with mass produced garbage. I dont sell meals because that feels wrong even in DF.

I put a lot of effort into having stone blocks organized by color to build uniformly and get defeated by my impatiance most of the time. Sometimes I manage to get my outerworks appearing halfway uniform. I also use marble for statues at least as long as I dont have posh metals.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 03:54:40 am by postfux »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2021, 04:06:54 am »

Communism is slavery.

That's just dogmatism and dogmatism is slavery of the miiiiind!, and it's not really helpful in describing the game, especially in a game which has characters that are actually kidnapped and enslaved.  Dwarves have as much autonomy as their scripted "brains" allows them to have... which isn't much, but hey, you can't expect Toady to invent general AIs that can run by the hundreds simultaneously on modern hardware.  They pick when they work, they eat and drink when and how much they want, and otherwise enjoy the benefits of their work (and indeed, are often said to be fond of industry) all on their own, with the economy not changing that much even when it is introduced except that it introduces problems paying for the things dwarves could enjoy freely before.  Some dwarves are lazier than others, but because of how badly balanced the economy was, that rarely mattered, as even a crafter that barely ever showed up to work could become filthy rich compared to a hauler.

Communism existed in small farming communities for tens of thousands of years before the Soviet Union came along.  (Although the Marxists called the successful forms of communism that existed in tribes and medieval farming villages "Primative Communism" to contrast it against their supposedly superior, yet unsuccessful form.) It is, in fact, the default (lack of) government.  If you suddenly found yourself shipwrecked on an island with some other survivors, would you immediately start trying to form a legislature and create your own money system, or would you just agree to work together to find food, water, and shelter for the common survival?  (Or are you a "slave" if you work to find food until you hash out an exact payment rate in seashells?)



In any event, it's worth mentioning that there are two different economies - the one that exists outside the fortress you engage in trade with caravans with, and the one that exists within the fortress. 

One is enabled, and as everyone already knows, it's stupidly imbalanced because of the wild over-inflation of value in goods due to quality.  (I think it's notable that the Dwarf Fortress clone games like Townies or Gnomoria - RIP - made every level of increased quality only increase the value of a good by 10% instead of 100% like DF does.)  That said, balance aside, it does generally work well enough.

The problems of the first one are real, but aren't really the subject of this thread.

The other, the internal economy, is broken in part because an internal fortress economy needs to serve a purpose.  Communism fails when small farming villages where everyone knows everyone else get large enough that everyone doesn't know everyone else, doesn't feel a communal sense of unity or kinship, and people need money to regulate exchanges because they can't rely upon personal honor anymore.  The thing is, DF lacks that kind of breakdown in community that would trigger such a change, regardless of how large a group gets.  (Even in a tiny community, dwarves outside the Starting Seven, which are forced to have friendships with one another, most dwarves have few acquaintances, much less friends, at least as far as my experience goes, and yet they never have trouble working for the betterment of dwarves they've literally never talked to before.)

The internal economy's activation didn't solve any problem you faced with dwarves before it came on.  There is no need to drive dwarves on with a profit motive, they happily work for its own sake.  The only thing it does, in gameplay terms, is cause some dwarves to be homeless because they were unlucky when job assignments were being handed out.
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postfux

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Re: Please Don't Bring Back Dwaren Economy
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2021, 07:30:03 am »

Communism is an ideology, that didnt exist until very recently. I dont think a stone age hunter, a roman farmer or a germanic tribesman would have described themselves as communist. They also likely didnt share the ideas propagated by marxism.

While nomadic societies didnt have much use for property with the first settlements more complicated societies developed. Communal property was often an important part of them, and communal property still exists in some part even in modern societies. Most forms of communal property like mills and pastures were abandoned with the course of time. Driving forces where specialization and  capitalism.

The soviet union was the ideology of communism brought to practice. What it did to the rural population cant be called any different than slavery.

I am not a slave when I am forced to work for my food by necessity.

But I am a slave when my products get abitrarily taken away from me and hiding some products for myself, stopping to work for others or commiting the crime of accumulting property (aka as calling the things I did work for my own) gets me sent to siberia, where slavery is enforced much more strictly.

A roman shepard, even when legally a slave, did have more freedom than a soviet farmer (or a dorf).
______________________________________________________________________________________

I think we agree on many things concernig DF economy. Without a world economy there cant be a real fortress economy because there cant be anything driving it beside a script.

Quality is surely a source of imbalance in the current system. I think that it should have to be much harder to achieve high quality. After mass producing steel leggins for some time (and making some profit from melting them) even a totally clumsy dorf can produce ☼breastplates☼ and it doesnt even take him longer than a piece of mass produced rubbish.

Amount of labor and/ or skill must be the source of income for a dorf if the system is balanced. The overseer must have an income of his own to really create a fortress economy, that is worth its name. Otherwise the overseer is only handing out seashells, that can be handed back to him at fixed rates (by him or the matrix).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 07:32:12 am by postfux »
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