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[Shonai_Dweller]

Got another dwarf with high stress. A marksdwarf that had his personality shifted to a constant state of internal rage after experiencing trauma. He keeps getting angry after getting into arguments and dwelling upon an old one.

Do you mean high-stress in a Dfhack data sense, or actual red arrow "over the long term..." stress? Until he reaches that he won't get stuck in the "meeting with the mayor" spiral that seems very hard to break out of.

[Bumber]

Do you mean high-stress in a Dfhack data sense, or actual red arrow "over the long term..." stress? Until he reaches that he won't get stuck in the "meeting with the mayor" spiral that seems very hard to break out of.

Red arrow. He's stuck doing individual training, so I've got to kick him out of his squad first.

[Urist McVoyager]

While the program can be whatever we want it to be, Toady has been working on fixing up raiding parties. Perhaps the "excess" stability within the fortress is intended to make it easier to use your fortress as a launching point for major campaigns against the outside world. Sending soldiers out on mass raids and then dealing with the aftermath when enemies come at you over it will certainly spike the stress you'll get.

I'm not saying this to be lazy and ask others to do it. Kind of calling my shot here, since it's been my dream for a while to reenact some old books I grew up on, and embark on such a quest. I'll share more details when I start the campaign, and try to keep y'all up to date on what happens.

[Moeteru]

There still seem to be some problems with dwarves praying in multiple temples.
I've got a broker who worships two gods. His need to pray to one god is satisfied while the other is unmet, yet he keeps going to the first god's temple with a purple "Worship!" activity.
Looking through my citizens with Dwarf Therapist it seems that none of them have more than one satisfied prayer need. The ones who worship multiple gods are all complaining about being unable to pray.

Update: I seem to have somewhat solved the problem by locking the doors of my individual temples, forcing my dwarves to use the main all-gods temple. There are now at least a few dwarves who have multiple pray/meditate needs satisfied at once.

Needs aside, the general stress level among my dwarves is looking much better in 47.05 compared to 47.04. I've yet to have any of my dwarves slip into an unrecoverable depression spiral.

[Shonai_Dweller]

There still seem to be some problems with dwarves praying in multiple temples.
I've got a broker who worships two gods. His need to pray to one god is satisfied while the other is unmet, yet he keeps going to the first god's temple with a purple "Worship!" activity.
Looking through my citizens with Dwarf Therapist it seems that none of them have more than one satisfied prayer need. The ones who worship multiple gods are all complaining about being unable to pray.

Update: I seem to have somewhat solved the problem by locking the doors of my individual temples, forcing my dwarves to use the main all-gods temple. There are now at least a few dwarves who have multiple pray/meditate needs satisfied at once.

Needs aside, the general stress level among my dwarves is looking much better in 47.05 compared to 47.04. I've yet to have any of my dwarves slip into an unrecoverable depression spiral.

Is being unable to pray to one god preventing Overall Needs from being satisfied,? That being the only thing which matters, (needs messages are very confusing, badly distracted doesn't mean your dwarf is badly distracted unless it's "overall").

[PatrikLundell]

Well, it may be that overall needs are the only thing that matters technically when it comes to the game, but if the feedback is too confusing it affects the player. The player shouldn't have to chase the "why are my dorfs praying to only one god" issues even if they are, technically, not relevant to the result.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Well, it may be that overall needs are the only thing that matters technically when it comes to the game, but if the feedback is too confusing it affects the player. The player shouldn't have to chase the "why are my dorfs praying to only one god" issues even if they are, technically, not relevant to the result.

Yes. But if dwarves are looking after their important needs (and possibly they're not, are they prioritising their "ardent worship" god's?) then this is a minor annoyance bug, even more minor once the new interface hits, and not some pressing stress and needs balance problem. Of course we want Toady to Fix Everything, but it's best to keep some perspective on what the big problems are in this official thread.

Of course, if dwarves aren't prioritising their most needy god, and this is causing them to be unable to meet their overall needs, then it's a big issue that needs to be fixed sooner rather than later. Likewise if it's actually causing stress through sad thoughts at being unable to pray to their god then it's a big issue to deal with before the next stress balance.

[Moeteru]

There's no doubt it's a very minor bug.
None of my dwarves are significantly above zero stress so the changes have definitely solved that problem. I only noticed it was happening at all because my broker was prioritising praying over trading at the depot.

I (apparently wrongly) assumed this thread was for general research on dwarven psychology. If it's meant to be exclusively for urgent game-breaking issues then I apologize.

[Shonai_Dweller]

There's no doubt it's a very minor bug.
None of my dwarves are significantly above zero stress so the changes have definitely solved that problem. I only noticed it was happening at all because my broker was prioritising praying over trading at the depot.

I (apparently wrongly) assumed this thread was for general research on dwarven psychology. If it's meant to be exclusively for urgent game-breaking issues then I apologize.

If no dwarves are ever above zero stress, then the problem isn't solved...

Anyway, just my opinion on thread focus. Feel free to ignore me. Since there aren't many major issues going on, may as well address the smaller ones.

(After year 7 in my fortress with it's massive corpse mountain at the front door requiring cleanup every 6 months or so, I'm getting about 1 stressed dwarf a year - generally none due to corpses funnily enough. That's pretty good, it's like dealing with a moody dwarf. Although likely with more care I'd have none).

(Not sure if they can be cured yet though. One commited death-by-siege, another was a long-term visitor who I exiled, the third I'm working on right now).

[Bumber]

Got another dwarf that's spiraling downwards due to being angry about getting into arguments and reliving it. They're in a constant state of internal rage due to trauma, just like the other. Even worse, this dwarf feels nothing after shouting at the mayor each time. Being enraptured from communing with a deity doesn't even put a dent in the stress.

It seems that such dwarves are basically unsaveable, unless you're willing to make sure they never come in contact with another dwarf ever again.

[Moeteru]

If no dwarves are ever above zero stress, then the problem isn't solved...

They're living in relative luxury, so it doesn't seem like a bug to me. There's abundant food prepared by a legendary chef, masterwork silk clothing, half the rooms have masterwork furniture of one from or another, there's a library full of books, a well stocked hospital with plenty of soap for baths, and every time a goblin siege appears the goblins get doused in magma long before any dwarf has to look at them. The biggest problems in their lives are boredom, cold weather, and occasional bits of miasma when some claimed food goes rotten.

The problem with the old version in my opinion was that some dwarves would be virtually unrecoverable regardless of how nice you made their lives. Stress should be an incentive for the player to improve the living conditions in the fort. Randomly occurring, untreatable depression just isn't fun (or even !!FUN!!). It would definitely be a problem if they were happy despite living in squalid conditions surrounded by the rotting corpses of their friends, but that's not the case in my current fort.

It seems that such dwarves are basically unsaveable, unless you're willing to make sure they never come in contact with another dwarf ever again.

I'd be interested to see what would happen if you actually did that. Isolate them in a burrow behind a locked door, dropping in alcohol and masterwork meals via a hatch or airlock, and give them as many sources of happiness as possible. Would they be able to function normally or would they be stuck in a constant loop of trying to meet with the mayor?

Also I wonder if it would be helpful to segregate dwarves based on their personal values. Would they stop getting into arguments if they were living with a dwarf who shared exactly the same values and beliefs, or is "in a constant state of internal rage" guaranteed to make them argue?

EDIT: I've just checked my own fort and I've got three adult dwarves with anger propensity higher than 90 (constant state of internal rage). Only one of them has any bad thoughts from getting into arguments and he's also the most stressed dwarf in the fort (I take back my previous statement about none of them having any significant stress). There's a different dwarf with an anger propensity of 64 (quick to anger) who actually feels satisfied after getting into an argument. I'm trying to figure out the difference between them but nothing obviously sticks out.

[vjek]

...
It seems that such dwarves are basically unsaveable, unless you're willing to make sure they never come in contact with another dwarf ever again.

For science, could you try running this against that single dwarf, and see if they recover? (just have them selected in the UI)

Spoiler: stress-be-gone.lua (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

-- Adjust many stress related personality traits of a dwarf
-- by vjek
--[====[

 stress-be-gone
 ==============
 Sets the stress related personality traits of a dwarf to:

 She is impervious to the effects of stress. 
 She has an incredibly calm demeanor. 
 She never becomes angry. 
 She never feels discouraged. 
 She never envies others their status, situation or possessions. 
 She never feels hatred toward anyone or anything. 
 She does not have feelings of emotional attachment and has never felt even a moment's connection with another being. 
 She is never moved by the emotions of others.
 She is completely convinced of her own worthlessness. 
 She has no sense of vengeance or retribution. 
 She is  shameless, absolutely unfazed by the thoughts of others. 
 She finds something humorous in everything, no matter how serious or inappropriate.   
 She often feels filled  with joy. 
 She has such a developed sense of optimism that she always assumes the best outcome will eventually occur, no matter what. 

]====]

function brainwash_unit(unit)
    if unit==nil then
        print ("No unit available!  Aborting with extreme prejudice.")
        return
end

unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.STRESS_VULNERABILITY = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.ANXIETY_PROPENSITY = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.ANGER_PROPENSITY = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.DEPRESSION_PROPENSITY = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.ENVY_PROPENSITY = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.HATE_PROPENSITY = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.EMOTIONALLY_OBSESSIVE = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.PRIDE = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.VENGEFUL = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.BASHFUL = 1
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.HUMOR = 99
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.CHEER_PROPENSITY = 99
unit.status.current_soul.personality.traits.HOPEFUL = 99
end

function adjust_a_dwarf()
    local unit=dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit()
    print("Adjusting "..dfhack.TranslateName(dfhack.units.getVisibleName(unit)))
    brainwash_unit(unit)
end

adjust_a_dwarf()



[Nilsolm]

EDIT: I've just checked my own fort and I've got three adult dwarves with anger propensity higher than 90 (constant state of internal rage). Only one of them has any bad thoughts from getting into arguments and he's also the most stressed dwarf in the fort (I take back my previous statement about none of them having any significant stress). There's a different dwarf with an anger propensity of 64 (quick to anger) who actually feels satisfied after getting into an argument. I'm trying to figure out the difference between them but nothing obviously sticks out.

I have three dwarves in my current fort with high anger propensity (above 90). Two of them are stressed, but the third seems to be doing alright despite getting angry about arguments the whole time. I am also seeing some dwarves with lower anger propensity (between 60 and 70) who are getting angry, but they aren't stressed either. I imagine the cause is either some combination of personality facets (although I'm not seeing any pattern there with Therapist) or talking/arguing with dwarves with conflicting personalities.

On the other hand, the ones who are stressed seem to be keeping it together so far. They haven't been causing any trouble, other than pestering the mayor every five minutes.

[PatrikLundell]

@Moeteru: I assume you've checked for Likes To Argue on the dorf that derives satisfaction from arguing?

[Moeteru]

I've looked into it some more and both the need to argue and the thought derived from arguing seem to be correlated with the "friendliness" trait in Dwarf Therapist. Low friendliness makes a dwarf more argumentative while high friendliness makes them more upset by arguments. Friendliness of 60 or below gives a dwarf the need to argue, while below 30-40 they actually get positive thoughts from arguments.

As for my stressed dwarf, I think I've saved him. In addition to fixing the temple situation so he's getting more positive thoughts from praying I upgraded the dining room to legendary and took him off hauling duties so he could spend more time meeting with the mayor. Some combination of those positive thoughts seem to have displaced the negative thoughts he was dwelling on. I'm not certain yet, but I suspect he's going to start recovering from now on.
Also I observed one of the new thoughts: "He feels satisfied discussing his problems with an acquaintance."

EDIT: I spoke too soon. He's still getting angry thoughts from dwelling on arguing and his stress is still slowly increasing.