Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sver]

Also, it seems the justice system is the major source of stress in the current version along with personality changes which, at least in this case, were understandable. Last I played, I had someone else chained in a cell and his stress was going up constantly as well. He'll likely be on the list by the time he is out.

This is more of a suggestion than anything, but, for the protocol, I think the justice system is ought to give at least some benefit to the player - something as small as a positive thought to all law-abiding dwarves in the fort whenever a just punishment is carried out. The game already gives all dwarves a negative thought if the player convicts an animal/corpse/victim, after all, so the framework is there.

[Nilsolm]

It seems that victims of a crime can already get a positive thought if the offender is convicted, so it likely wouldn't be difficult to extend it to everyone else.

I am not sure that alone would solve the issue though. The negative thoughts about being confined should probably be way less severe than they are now. I suppose it sort of makes sense if a dwarf who hates the law gets locked up, like that mason I mentioned, but this shouldn't be as common as it is.

[Shonai_Dweller]

It seems that victims of a crime can already get a positive thought if the offender is convicted, so it likely wouldn't be difficult to extend it to everyone else.

I am not sure that alone would solve the issue though. The negative thoughts about being confined should probably be way less severe than they are now. I suppose it sort of makes sense if a dwarf who hates the law gets locked up, like that mason I mentioned, but this shouldn't be as common as it is.

How quickly do they get better after release in the current version? Most of my dorfs are recovering from any bad thoughts way faster than they can accumulate stress. Not had to lock anyone up yet though.

Remember the aim is not to eliminate stress. Being locked up in a dungeon is supposed to be stressful (although some dorfs actually get good thoughts from it). It's whether it's basically same punishment as execution that matters.

[Nilsolm]

Of the three that got stressed during jail time, only one has recovered so far. It took her quite a while, but she is actually one of the happiest dwarves at the moment. The other two have been stressed for, I think, over a year now and they don't seem to be getting any better thus far. Granted, I haven't been trying to actively help them beyond making sure they don't do any hauling so they have plenty of free time. We'll see if they get better in time.

On the other hand, another dwarf that was locked up was released in the meantime and he seems to be fine. His stress went up to about 7k and then back down to 0 relatively quickly. So maybe it was just a coincidence that I got three in a row stressing out over it.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Of the three that got stressed during jail time, only one has recovered so far. It took her quite a while, but she is actually one of the happiest dwarves at the moment. The other two have been stressed for, I think, over a year now and they don't seem to be getting any better thus far. Granted, I haven't been trying to actively help them beyond making sure they don't do any hauling so they have plenty of free time. We'll see if they get better in time.

On the other hand, another dwarf that was locked up was released in the meantime and he seems to be fine. His stress went up to about 7k and then back down to 0 relatively quickly. So maybe it was just a coincidence that I got three in a row stressing out over it.

Sounds fairly reasonable. Would be interesting to see if the tough ones get better with some attention. A year without any particular care is pretty good going - highly stressed dwarf with escalating bad memories would be haggard by the end of a year in 47.04 unless you were really looking after him (and even then it never got really better, just not worse - until you forget about him of course...).

[Shonai_Dweller]

Oh, my one stressed dwarf (over the long term...) is currently "feeling relieved discussing his problems with an acquaintance". Don't think I've seen that before. So friends can contribute directly to stress relief.

Possibly. Although it's entirely possible this is just an extra boost on top of the "relieved while crying on somebody in charge" (the mayor is a passing acquaintance) and maybe it doesn't work on regular acquaintances.

Nothing in particular seems to be the problem. He's feeling self-pity not being able to pray and being away from family. And of course is frequently depressed after being caught in the rain in 166.

[Bumber]

My necromancer's holding at 21k stress. She feels enraptured from praying to her two deities, but that's soon counteracted by all the needs she can't meet, as well as dwelling upon the blind cave ogre's corpse and discussing the lever (thanks to necro distrustfulness.)

Got another stressed dwarf, but he seems fixable.

[Shonai_Dweller]

My necromancer's holding at 21k stress. She feels enraptured from praying to her two deities, but that's soon counteracted by all the needs she can't meet, as well as dwelling upon the blind cave ogre's corpse and discussing the lever (thanks to necro distrustfulness.)

Got another stressed dwarf, but he seems fixable.

Needs don't effect stress.
Unless something changed in 47.05?


I observed "discussing problems with an acquaintance" happening. It's entirely separate from the crying on the mayor/priest activity, so that's nice to see.

[NCommander]

This is more of a suggestion than anything, but, for the protocol, I think the justice system is ought to give at least some benefit to the player - something as small as a positive thought to all law-abiding dwarves in the fort whenever a just punishment is carried out. The game already gives all dwarves a negative thought if the player convicts an animal/corpse/victim, after all, so the framework is there.

It actually used to pre-stress. Back when we had happiness, a dwarf who survived their prison sentence would get a +1000 happiness bonus which was the same as making an artifact and would make sure that they wouldn't spiral. The problem is that feeding was very buggy *at best*, and beatings/hammerer would pretty much destroy any attempts at making justice not be Dwarf Murder 3000.

The "Is happy to be free" thought is still in the game, but it doesn't provide the same bonus to end spirals like it used to. It also used to be that you needed both Fortress Guards and Royal Guards in 23a/40d or there would be fortress wide negative thoughts. Basically, it's more that Dwarven Justice hasn't changed since the 2D versions but the rest of the game did.

The largest problem with happiness is that the game could lead to a tantrum spiral *very* easily and it didn't take much to send a fortress over the edge. If/when justice worked, that would usually stop things from going worse, but it was very easy to spiral out of control. Stress on the other hand generally prevented the "wafer thin mint" problem, and a single bad day (usually) won't break a dwarf in and of itself. The way the needs/personality changes system works however means that negative stress compounds much worse.

It also didn't help that a lot of these problems started when stress was introduced (late 2014), and we didn't get the exile button until 2018. I'm keeping an eye on this thread after watching Kruggsmash's recent stress test fort. Stress/needs was ultimately the final straw that just made DF unappealing to play and withdraw from the community. If its no longer a micromanagement nightmare, I might try starting/joining a succession fort or two.

[Bumber]

Needs don't effect stress.
Unless something changed in 47.05?

She gets hit for about 1k stress a month due to just that. Ogre corpse is another 1k.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Needs don't effect stress.
Unless something changed in 47.05?

She gets hit for about 1k stress a month due to just that. Ogre corpse is another 1k.

That's a picture of your stress descriptions. Needs are at the bottom of the page and not affecting your stress.

(Obviously there's some crossover in there. But distracted for not spending time with friends hits you for zero stress, while sad from being away from friends hits you for some stress. Steam will separate the two categories to make it easier to understand).

[Bumber]

They're linked together. Unmet needs hit you with recurring bad thoughts, and they're not insignificant.

[Shonai_Dweller]

They're linked together. Unmet needs hit you with recurring bad thoughts, and they're not insignificant.

And dwarves without those needs also get sad sometimes. It's two different systems. And needs to be thought of as two different systems.

That's what messed up the last thread on stress. "Oh my dwarves are so stressed because they need to wander in the wilds, but can't. Broken stress, broken game!" But...no stressed thoughts about it, so not at all an issue.

[clinodev]

They're linked together. Unmet needs hit you with recurring bad thoughts, and they're not insignificant.

And dwarves without those needs also get sad sometimes. It's two different systems. And needs to be thought of as two different systems.

That's what messed up the last thread on stress. "Oh my dwarves are so stressed because they need to wander in the wilds, but can't. Broken stress, broken game!" But...no stressed thoughts about it, so not at all an issue.

I always thought it was the 2 pages of "44.11 is perfectly balanced, git gud" that tainted it myself. 

[Shonai_Dweller]

They're linked together. Unmet needs hit you with recurring bad thoughts, and they're not insignificant.

And dwarves without those needs also get sad sometimes. It's two different systems. And needs to be thought of as two different systems.

That's what messed up the last thread on stress. "Oh my dwarves are so stressed because they need to wander in the wilds, but can't. Broken stress, broken game!" But...no stressed thoughts about it, so not at all an issue.

I always thought it was the 2 pages of "44.11 is perfectly balanced, git gud" that tainted it myself. 

Which two pages are those? I recall that specific comment being thrown out there somewhere, but I've just gone back and read the first 25 pages of the previous thread and a sudden 2-page reversal into "it's all OK really" hasn't come up yet.

Which reminds me, has anyone had any Captain of the Guard stress issues yet? Mine is holding out OK despite my forgetting to update the chains for quite a while as the population's grown. It seemed to be a fatally stressful position in 47.04.