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[JAL28]

Rocket Batteries would be a siege engine, the third to be implemented beside the catapult and the ballista. Unlike the former which can attack enemies from multiple z-levels(a feature that should be implemented) and the latter which plies through single rows of enemies with brute power, the rocket battery would be more of an Area of Effect weapon, which damages multiple enemies in a radius.

The Rocket Battery would look similar to 15th century Ming Dynasty rocket batteries(see: “wasp nest” rocket launchers), basically a 3by1 box in the middle with the stick and warhead of the missiles poking out. Unlike other siege engines, the Rocket Launcher can hold up to 3 rockets and fire them all in rapid succession. The rockets themselves would explode after contacting an enemy or after traveling a certain distance(provably around 60-80 tiles). The explosion would look similar to a deadly dust cloud, except with fire, smoke and no dust. Creature may be flung several tiles horizontally and vertically by the explosion, while blast damage itself has a high tendency to detach limbs which have no armour(naked, civilian clothes) and seriously damaging the body through tearing/killing through exploding into gore. Unarmoured enemies are very susceptible to explosions, while armoured enemies usually deflect the blow or get minor bruising, only rarely having limbs torn off or rendered otherwise useless. Combat actions taken by explosions usually reads in the combat log as “The blast hits the (creature) in the (part), (action)!”. Blasts may also set enemies on fire.

Rockets themselves are usually made from 1 metal bar, 1 wood and 1 piece of gunpowder. Gunpowder is made by reacting 1 Brimstone, 1 Charcoal/Ash and 1 Saltpeter. Brimstone would be changed to spawn in both igneous extrusive and intrusive layers to facilitate the feasible creation of gunpowder. Saltpeter may also be made from bat guano, a rare “mineral” that is white in colour and spawns on cavern floors(natural ones, not artificial ones). Giant bats can also produce guano, meaning tamed ones can be farmed for their guano to make gunpowder.

Drawbacks: The missiles are indiscriminatory, being able to blow apart your recruits as easily as invading goblins. Furthermore, they cannot be moved, unlike other siege engines, preventing them from being used for raids/sieges. Finally, if a siege operator at Competent skill or under operates the battery, there is a chance that the missile will “backfire” and explode in the battery, usually killing the poor operator, deconstructing the battery and exploding all missiles within the blast radius, which may prove !!FUN!! especially if they start a fire.

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

I like your ideas, but Toady not want add gunpowder unto game. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

[Thisfox]

I am told the same thing: There is no intent to add gunpowder to the game.
Which is fine, it's brilliant without it.

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

Also, gunpowder may be made y very different recipes. As example, gunpowder from aluminum dust mixed with minium (red lead).

[JAL28]

I am told the same thing: There is no intent to add gunpowder to the game.
Which is fine, it's brilliant without it.

I like your ideas, but Toady not want add gunpowder unto game. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Didn’t the DF wiki quote on the Saltpeter page that Toady was planning to add gunpowder, but only for simple uses?

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Saltpeter

Also, gunpowder may be made y very different recipes. As example, gunpowder from aluminum dust mixed with minium (red lead).

Though I think the more archaic methods is the one that I used and therefore the one that will be used, as DF is already like 1400s technology and also minium is not in game so it would be slightly easier to use existing materials in game(minus guano).

[FantasticDorf]

The implication that a dwarf can make a gunpowder container (out of what material? paper?) and a fuse kinda precludes seperate inventions being put together. As amusing as sending a barrage of explosive charges is, using a primitive cannon of the late 14th century as a anti-infantry weapon is conceptually more simplistic.

Already you can code in round-shot for ballistae, as that were already used by the romans to especially splatter armored opponents by simply using torsion and scaling strength to size minus what gunpowder does to replace that torsion. Ballistae being strong already, a cannon would really have to fly as fast as a minecart and positively shear and shatter heads and bodies apart to be worth anything in practical terms or other benefits like being a 1 tile single fixture.

[voliol]

This section from DF Talk 8 seems relevant:

Capntastic:   The next thing; explosives. What are your plans for tactical nukes?
Toady:   That's right, we have unrefined uranium in the game, and I hear about centrifuges all the time, and aluminum tubes ... We've got aluminum, we don't have centrigues, we have pipe sections, so you make a giant aluminum pipe section and fill it with pitchblende or whatever we've got and ... Yeah, so we're not doing that. But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps. And we've got charcoal and coal and kinds of stuff like that available, so it's there, the building blocks are there, and then it become strictly a matter of taste, and what you're going to do with it. I don't think we've had the discussion on Dwarf Fortress Talk before but I've had the discussion on the forums or in the dev notes and so on about what we think about that. Where we were on that is that we are not against coding up the code necessary to get that kind of thing to work; at the very least just blowing the crap out of things. Maybe not making a gun or something but blowing the crap out of things. That probably wouldn't be in the most vanilla vanilla Dwarf Fortress. After we see it action and see it perhaps not spoiling the mood entirely it might make it in, but certainly we'd support that kind of thing shortly after chemistry starts to take off; I've no problem with that at all. Then it's a matter of how blowing stuff up works in the game. It would just be another one of those reactions; when this point hits its ignition point it's a little different than just setting on fire. It would just need to be able to look around at the adjacent squares and apply forces to things, and it can do all that. It should be not that difficult once we have the chemistry stuff we've been talking about to have things that are explosive, and not just black powder which as far as I know is the only historical example of a real explosive. Of course people can show me whatever else there is that I don't know about there, but there can also be fantasy-type explosive things, like creatures that blow up for no reason that somehow survived after all these thousands of years, and then when you come up to them they just blow up.
Rainseeker:   It's because they're allergic to dwarves.
Toady:   Well, dwarf is a ...
Capntastic:   One dies so that the others may live.
Toady:   Yeah, unless they're all lined up or something, because those things tend to blow up in clusters. I'm not really sure where I'm at right now ... pro modded explosives and kind of ambivalent about vanilla explosives. It should be the kind of thing that is just one extra step in the chemistry raws; instead of saying that this thing heats up when the products are mixed or the products are ignited, it's like 'this does an explosion of this force per unit of black powder'; then there'd just need to be one extra function there that says what an explosion does. After that you can start to work with ideas; like what about things like cannons or mines that you want to do, and we can slowly work with that but the farther afield you go the more it would be deprioritised.

I've highlighted the most important parts/parts that summarize. DF Talk 8 from 2010 though, so it might be dated. At the same time we haven't gotten close to any kind of "chemistry update" yet, so it hasn't necessarily been touched on much.


On a side note, Capntastic asks about tactical nukes in at least 3 of the DF talks: in #2, #8 and #23. I just find that funny.

[towerator]

This section from DF Talk 8 seems relevant:

Capntastic:   The next thing; explosives. What are your plans for tactical nukes?
Toady:   That's right, we have unrefined uranium in the game, and I hear about centrifuges all the time, and aluminum tubes ... We've got aluminum, we don't have centrigues, we have pipe sections, so you make a giant aluminum pipe section and fill it with pitchblende or whatever we've got and ... Yeah, so we're not doing that. But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps. And we've got charcoal and coal and kinds of stuff like that available, so it's there, the building blocks are there, and then it become strictly a matter of taste, and what you're going to do with it. I don't think we've had the discussion on Dwarf Fortress Talk before but I've had the discussion on the forums or in the dev notes and so on about what we think about that. Where we were on that is that we are not against coding up the code necessary to get that kind of thing to work; at the very least just blowing the crap out of things. Maybe not making a gun or something but blowing the crap out of things. That probably wouldn't be in the most vanilla vanilla Dwarf Fortress. After we see it action and see it perhaps not spoiling the mood entirely it might make it in, but certainly we'd support that kind of thing shortly after chemistry starts to take off; I've no problem with that at all. Then it's a matter of how blowing stuff up works in the game. It would just be another one of those reactions; when this point hits its ignition point it's a little different than just setting on fire. It would just need to be able to look around at the adjacent squares and apply forces to things, and it can do all that. It should be not that difficult once we have the chemistry stuff we've been talking about to have things that are explosive, and not just black powder which as far as I know is the only historical example of a real explosive. Of course people can show me whatever else there is that I don't know about there, but there can also be fantasy-type explosive things, like creatures that blow up for no reason that somehow survived after all these thousands of years, and then when you come up to them they just blow up.
Rainseeker:   It's because they're allergic to dwarves.
Toady:   Well, dwarf is a ...
Capntastic:   One dies so that the others may live.
Toady:   Yeah, unless they're all lined up or something, because those things tend to blow up in clusters. I'm not really sure where I'm at right now ... pro modded explosives and kind of ambivalent about vanilla explosives. It should be the kind of thing that is just one extra step in the chemistry raws; instead of saying that this thing heats up when the products are mixed or the products are ignited, it's like 'this does an explosion of this force per unit of black powder'; then there'd just need to be one extra function there that says what an explosion does. After that you can start to work with ideas; like what about things like cannons or mines that you want to do, and we can slowly work with that but the farther afield you go the more it would be deprioritised.

I've highlighted the most important parts/parts that summarize. DF Talk 8 from 2010 though, so it might be dated. At the same time we haven't gotten close to any kind of "chemistry update" yet, so it hasn't necessarily been touched on much.


On a side note, Capntastic asks about tactical nukes in at least 3 of the DF talks: in #2, #8 and #23. I just find that funny.

So, from this, it will be possible to explodificate things in the future?

[Starver]

I'd have said the priority for siege-weapon expansion was to add to the mass-attack of a rock and the pointy-attack of the bolt with something slicey (serrated disc flinger?).

You can already 'area attack' by establishing a battery, although any 'thrower' weapon could be perhaps retasked as multi-projectile (at the cost of power - either range or ammo-sizing) and an area-effect granted by throwing rock shards, bolt-bundles and the like (with some recoding?). c.f. grapeshot (or chainshot) instead of cannonballs. Not that it isn't already a (derived) minecart capability.

And if you wanted the 'explosive impact', specifically, throwing a burning barrel of booze (or a specially container-tipped ballista-bolt?) with existing/compounded fire/steam/dust mechanics on impact should be possible without worrying about new milling materials (ground charcoal, saltpetre, etc) and their mixing.


I'm ambivalent, really. Just giving a few different options. Though I'm not sure they'll be taken up. (Ninjaed by voliol's transcript-post.)

[Shonai_Dweller]

He talked about gunpowder again much more recently (in the past year or so). The concept of what "vanilla" dwarf fortress will be is much more flexible now, which means introducing certain tech in certain types of world will be possible. Not a confirmation by any means, but stronger than "nope".

[JAL28]

And if you wanted the 'explosive impact', specifically, throwing a burning barrel of booze (or a specially container-tipped ballista-bolt?) with existing/compounded fire/steam/dust mechanics on impact should be possible without worrying about new milling materials (ground charcoal, saltpetre, etc) and their mixing.

Saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur already exist in the game, with sulfur being represented by brimstone, though native sulfur can easily be added into the game. Reactions for making gunpowder would be easy to create, provably through the alchemy table or something. Explosions could very well just be deadly dust clouds but with dragonfire(or normal fire) instead of the dust. The hardest part would probably be to code the powder to actually explode and give such an effect.

And honestly, explosives are a thing that exists in the 15th century. Rockets also existed in the 15th century. While that was 4 centuries away from nukes(we probably will never get those unfortunately), I do believe that they explosives should exist in DF.

And look at the bright side. That zombie horde that rogue necromancer brought over for dinner? Dispatched. Those trolls and beak dogs? Pulverized. Those filthy treehuggers with their filmsy wood armour(which would be regarded as civilian clothes to the blast damage rolls) and their giant animals? Splattered into gory bits on the trees they loved so much. Like I said, it is pretty ineffective against armour(it isn’t irl, but we need a weakness right?), as well as they fact that they can only be built stationary is probably already a pretty big weakness. Also, gunpowder would be a pretty lucrative resource because either Saltpeter or brimstone would be found as small clusters when the other is found in large clusters(eg. Saltpeter in sedimentary is small, brimstone in igneous intrusive is large), meaning there is only a limited amount.

[Starver]

Saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur already exist in the game,

Aye, but ground versions aren't (though easily implemented[1]) is what I was alluding to.

So seperately mill MATs to Ground_MATs at the quern/millstone then use (carefully!) with suitable containers (e.g. paper, cloth, carved rock or cast metal, depending on need) in some relevent (new?) workshop with thick walls but thin/non-existent roof. As I am confident has been modded in (in various forms) by countless others exploiting the existing structures in their own way.


[1] As a player Mod, naturally, but also in this case as a fully implemented suggestion to the developer going straight into the default published raws of an upcoming release too.

[JAL28]

Saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur already exist in the game,

Aye, but ground versions aren't (though easily implemented[1]) is what I was alluding to.

So seperately mill MATs to Ground_MATs at the quern/millstone then use (carefully!) with suitable containers (e.g. paper, cloth, carved rock or cast metal, depending on need) in some relevent (new?) workshop with thick walls but thin/non-existent roof. As I am confident has been modded in (in various forms) by countless others exploiting the existing structures in their own way.


[1] As a player Mod, naturally, but also in this case as a fully implemented suggestion to the developer going straight into the default published raws of an upcoming release too.

Actually, I would have just used the actual ingredients themselves rather than complicating the process with ground forms. I would assume that the products would be ground during the reaction rather than before it, which removes the need of grinding them beforehand.

[Starver]

Then you shake your nitro-glycerine flasks too, to make sure they're mixed properly, I imagine...

[Bumber]

Then you shake your nitro-glycerine flasks too, to make sure they're mixed properly, I imagine...

They mean during the workshop reaction, ostensibly using a mortar and pestle, before they're combined.

I doubt you'd even get functional gunpowder if you tried to crush the ingredients simultaneously, since the ratios would be all wrong.