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[gimli]

quote:Originally posted by Slartibartfast:
<STRONG>
So just open up the console and type /godmode off  (ie don't use traps/magma defences/steam defences/water defence etc.)</STRONG>

Correct. That is what I do now also. BUT! When the human player will send out armies, he/she will be forced to set up traps and defenses, or the fortress might be in serious trouble, since the couple of remaining soldiers won't be able to defeat the invaders. Thus, we will end up with traps/defenses, and beat the invaders without any problels, WHILE we will have a nice big army marching towards the AI cities/forts.
This is why I say that the traps/defenses should be balanced, they should NOT offer invincibility.
1 trap should only kill 1 oppoment, magma channels should be filled totally with extremely hard material after the magma has been cooled down, the invaders should get some constructs, special ladders or something to bypass the water/magma defense and the traps also. These should be some special units carrying these items/constructs.

[Slartibartfast]

quote:Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>

Correct. That is what I do now also. BUT! When the human player will send out armies, he/she will be forced to set up traps and defenses, or the fortress might be in serious trouble, since the couple of remaining soldiers won't be able to defeat the invaders. Thus, we will end up with traps/defenses, and beat the invaders without any problels, WHILE we will have a nice big army marching towards the AI cities/forts.
This is why I say that the traps/defenses should be balanced, they should NOT offer invincibility.
1 trap should only kill 1 oppoment, magma channels should be filled totally with extremely hard material after the magma has been cooled down, the invaders should get some constructs, special ladders or something to bypass the water/magma defense and the traps also. These should be some special units carrying these items/constructs.</STRONG>

Or perhaps by that time things will be different?
There's no way of telling what the game will be like by the time armies are finally implemented.
Its way too early to start shouting for change for reasons that won't apply for a long long time.
It is as if I would start a campaign against pollution caused by flying cars.

[gimli]

quote:Originally posted by Slartibartfast:
<STRONG>
Or perhaps by that time things will be different?
There's no way of telling what the game will be like by the time armies are finally implemented.
Its way too early to start shouting for change for reasons that won't apply for a long long time.
It is as if I would start a campaign against pollution caused by flying cars.</STRONG>

You don't need to have 200 IQ to figure this out mate. You probably won't attack an enemy city with 5 dwarves. You will attack with much more, thus your own fortress won't have enough troops to defend. This means traps/defenses.

Besides, I still don't understand your point, regardless of anything. Why is that good if some defenses are offering invincibility. Also, why would anyone think, that goblins/orcs/trolls couldn't raze/occupy a dwarven fortress.
Hell even in the Lord of the Rings they've devastated Moria.

[ January 26, 2007: Message edited by: gimli ]

[wereboar]

quote: Thus, we will end up with traps/defenses, and beat the invaders without any problels, WHILE we will have a nice big army marching towards the AI cities/forts.

this is the "master of magic", "heroes" and "age of wonders" mentality again. you build an army, you send it to enemy's castle, you capture all his castles - woot, you're teh winner. don't you know how medieval wars were actually waged? and where were the most important battles? not anywhere near the big city's walls. main cities were sieged only when an opponent had an overwhelming advantage and was absolutely sure in his victory.

[gimli]

quote:Originally posted by wereboar:
<STRONG>
this is the "master of magic", "heroes" and "age of wonders" mentality again. you build an army, you send it to enemy's castle, you capture all his castles - woot, you're teh winner. don't you know how medieval wars were actually waged? and where were the most important battles? not anywhere near the big city's walls. main cities were sieged only when an opponent had an overwhelming advantage and was absolutely sure in his victory.</STRONG>

So you think that the AI cities/forts won't have magma/water defenses and traps? Only the human player should be allowed to use them? .. and don't compare this game to medieval battles and age of wonders/MoM. There isn't any similarity.

[Kylaer]

quote:Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>

You don't need to have 200 IQ to figure this out mate. You probably won't attack an enemy city with 5 dwarves. You will attack with much more, thus your own fortress won't have enough troops to defend. This means traps/defenses.</STRONG>

Or building a bigger army. Or waiting until the enemy has exhausted their armies attacking you. Or any of a number of things. Seriously, you're complaining about a problem that is entirely of your own making. If you don't want to flood the world with magma, then...don't do it. Simple as that. If a hallway filled with traps seems too cheap, don't build it. Simple solution to an incredibly simple problem.

[wereboar]

quote: So you think that the AI cities/forts won't have magma/water defenses and traps? Only the human player should be allowed to use them?

no, i think AI cities might and even should have them (except for magma. humans don't have magma rivers flowing around). i just think that when Army Arc will be fully developed, battles will become more large scaled and versatile. player will be able to grow something like a domain around his fortress and patrol it (what else patrols could be for?) and most of battles will be held near some dwarf or human settlements or during raids on minor goblin settlements, while main strongholds will still prove to be very tough to conquer. remember disciples? you don't always need to capture cities to win the war.

[gimli]

quote:Originally posted by wereboar:
<STRONG>
no, i think AI cities might and even should have them (except for magma. humans don't have magma rivers flowing around). i just think that when Army Arc will be fully developed, battles will become more large scaled and versatile. player will be able to grow something like a domain around his fortress and patrol it (what else patrols could be for?) and most of battles will be held near some dwarf or human settlements or during raids on minor goblin settlements, while main strongholds will still prove to be very tough to conquer. remember disciples? you don't always need to capture cities to win the war.</STRONG>

So the dwarven "capital" the fortress will have a huge advantage the magma defense that way.
You are correct, it should be hella hard to capture a capital fortress, but it shouldn't be impossible. Right now, even if 500 goblins will attack, they all will be destroyed easily, and the dwarves won't loose soldiers, if the traps/defenses are up.

[Fieari]

500, 5000, 50000, 500000, it doesn't matter.  If you have 1 dwarf left... hack, if you have ZERO dwarves left and are just watching the aftermath, the current coding doesn't allow the goblins to get across the lava moats.

[slMagnvox]

quote:Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>Besides, I still don't understand your point, regardless of anything. Why is that good if some defenses are offering invincibility. Also, why would anyone think, that goblins/orcs/trolls couldn't raze/occupy a dwarven fortress.
Hell even in the Lord of the Rings they've devastated Moria.</STRONG>

It is good some defenses offer invulnerability because some players don't want to let their dwarfs get hurt when the siege comes.  It is good magma defenses offer this invulnerability because some people really have fun designing them.  It is good they are not a requirement for a sound defense because some players like letting their dwarfs get hurt and mixing it up with the goblins.

It is bad goblins don't have a little extra intelligence when confronted with traps and should disarm or avoid traps when possible.  It is bad goblins can't be given more morale, more bloodlust, especially on the aggressive (Untamed, Terrifying, etc) maps for a really satisfying goblin vs speardwarf bloodbath.  It is bad arrows do so much damage because it allows archers to insta-maim your favorite champion and cause one to lament why I even bothered with all the sparring injuries when marksdwarves are such powerful military.

It is bad to imagine the Army Arc making DF anything like an RTS game.  It is good imagining the Army Arc as presenting new exciting goals for your fort management.  Like bothering with all the sparring injuries to make a really awesome speardwarf company, The Silk Sabres.  And maybe sending them off one spring and never hearing from them again.  Heh.

And c'mon gimli, everyone knows it wasn't any siege, Moria just dug too deep.

[Kylaer]

quote:Originally posted by Fieari:
<STRONG>500, 5000, 50000, 500000, it doesn't matter.  If you have 1 dwarf left... hack, if you have ZERO dwarves left and are just watching the aftermath, the current coding doesn't allow the goblins to get across the lava moats.</STRONG>

Then DON'T BUILD LAVA MOATS.

I don't build lava moats. There's no requirement in the game to build lava moats. The Baron does not say "Demand: Lava moat at entrance." If you don't like it, don't use it. This is so simple it hurts my brain that people cannot realize it for themselves.

[Aquillion]

quote:Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>You are correct, it should be hella hard to capture a capital fortress, but it shouldn't be impossible. Right now, even if 500 goblins will attack, they all will be destroyed easily, and the dwarves won't loose soldiers, if the traps/defenses are up.</STRONG>

Of course they'll be destroyed easily by an established fortress!  How many games are there where just goblins (with no magical support or similar powerful backing) pose a serious threat to an established adventurer?  Wait until later on, when you have armies of goblins lead by shamans with ice spells or liches that can rend the earth and make the mountain erupt through your channels to flood your fortress.  What you're really complaining about now has nothing to do with the defenses themselves; the problem is that invading armies don't really DO much aside from charge stupidly at you, and don't have any tricks up their sleeves at all.  That will change eventually.  The point is that right now, you're using end-game defenses against incomplete early-game attackers; complaining that they can't win is silly.

And the fact is that as long as there's even the slightest respect for realism in the game, the player is ALWAYS going to have a defensive advantage over, at the very least, non-magic-using humans or disorganized goblins and orcs.  Living in a self-sufficient cave in the ground would be, in any reasonable and otherwise non-magical universe, an essentially insurmountable defensive advantage.  (Luckily, this universe isn't supposed to be completely non-magical in the long run; that's just temporary.)

Basically, it's silly to argue about balance at all, at least until the magic and artifact arcs are in.  Artifacts are supposed to be a major part of the game, practically one of its centerpieces, while magic stands to completely revise most aspects of late-game balance, especially since dwarves are likely to only get access to a small amount of it, while many high-level opponents are likely to be extremely magical.  Any effort spent balancing the game right now would be wasted--as it is, things stand to change completely once those arcs are in.

[ January 27, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Tormy]

Yes maybe it was a bit too early to make this topic. This topic can be bumped if necessary, when the Army ARC/Magic ARC is in. Hopefully this serious balance problem will be solved by that time.

[ January 27, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Marsume]

Yea, well one thing we need is to have all units in a squad move as one. Once with the goblins I sent out a squad of 5 and the first 2 showed up one at a time and got picked off before even firing. The third showed up and killed like 8 of them. Then they ran. He got an additional 5 kills as they routed. Had they been a serious force my units would have been slaugtered. Even when I sally them at the gate before sending them out there is no since of formation. If there was a formation lock command that would be most helpfull.

[Entropy]

Couple points.

1)  Lava hardening nerf of magma defense: the lava is simply very hot and though it cools and solidifies into pumice, it could slowly harden in a reverse flood effect slowly going back to the magma river.  Thus no worries about a legendary miner able to clean it out in a jiffy.  Of course then you have to install new floodgates, dig new channels, and whatnot which takes a lot of time anyway.

The simplest thing to do is if you think the magma defense is too powerful - don’t use it.  This is akin to people not bringing the outside river in because it represents bringing it uphill.  You can do it if you want, but if you think it isn't ‘right’ then don’t do it.  I think it unrealistic to flood the outside world with lava, so I do not do it.  I have a trapped corridor with balistas at the end - anything that makes it through that gets finished off by whatever soldiers deigned to show up.

2) Given how unreliable soldier dwarfs are, invasions do need to be largely defeated by traps.  If you could get your troops to actually answer the call to duty, stay at their station for a while, and thus be a reasonable force in a useful way, you could fight off an invasion with the military.  Since they take ages to show up, do so in a trickle one or two at a time, wander off constantly to spend an entire season to fill a waterskin or sleep, and are generally unreliable for mounting a significant defense at your entrance it is necessary for traps to be a good defense against invasion.  After the first couple invasions you will be hard pressed to survive without traps and moats.

If you want the challenge, then go ahead and play without traps or moats.

Since there are plans for a town outside the fortress, the more reasonable way to handle sieges is to have scouts warn you of approaching armies so you can send your own out to meet them in the field away from your fortress and town.  If you do not send out an army, or it is defeated, the invaders then ransack the town before turning on your fortress.

This would be a serious drawback to just isolating yourself in a self-sufficient impregnable fortress.