Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9

Author Topic: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!  (Read 10715 times)

Slartibartfast

  • Bay Watcher
  • Menaces with spikes of Tin
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2007, 08:43:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>[and don't forget they _MUST_ able to use it, or else, the game balance is screwed]</STRONG>

There's no "must" in Dwarf Fortress - Toady does whatever the hell he pleases. And if he doesn't care about game balance (and there's no reason for him to do so) then game balance isn't a "must" issue.
Logged
But what do I know?
Everything I say should be taken with atleast 1 tsp. of salt, and another liter of Dwarven Wine is recommended.

"I thought it was the size of the others!" said Vanon. "I guess it was just standing further away!"

gimli

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2007, 09:12:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Slartibartfast:
<STRONG>
There's no "must" in Dwarf Fortress - Toady does whatever the hell he pleases. And if he doesn't care about game balance (and there's no reason for him to do so) then game balance isn't a "must" issue.</STRONG>


Balance is always important. If these things won't be balanced, a part of the game will be pointless. I doubt that Toady wants to code in pointless things.

Logged

Momaw

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2007, 09:41:00 am »

How much of the exploits in liquid defenses could be fixed by:

- Magma is cooled to become rock when enough water hits it; which would require you to dig out the rock and rebuild the channels to reuse the steam defense. Plus it would cool naturally into the air limiting how far you could succesfully bring it before it, again, hardens.

- Liquids are limited; Water delivered by a tunnel that's 1 tile wide can only ARRIVE at 1 tile per <time>.  The more area you try to cover with it, the shallower it gets. Trying to flood the entire outside world wouldn't create an ocean, it'd create rivulets and lots of muck.

Logged

gimli

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2007, 10:15:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
<STRONG>How much of the exploits in liquid defenses could be fixed by:

- Magma is cooled to become rock when enough water hits it; which would require you to dig out the rock and rebuild the channels to reuse the steam defense. Plus it would cool naturally into the air limiting how far you could succesfully bring it before it, again, hardens.

- Liquids are limited; Water delivered by a tunnel that's 1 tile wide can only ARRIVE at 1 tile per <time>.  The more area you try to cover with it, the shallower it gets. Trying to flood the entire outside world wouldn't create an ocean, it'd create rivulets and lots of muck.</STRONG>



Mate it takes a very short time to clear out a channel with skilled miners..besides magma is cooling down without water also.

This won't solve the problem trust me.

Logged

Kylaer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2007, 11:20:00 am »

I don't have any of these complaints about things being too easy. You know why? Because I don't use magma/steam defenses. I use regular traps, siege engines, and my army when applicable. I do use a water moat to keep them at bay sometimes, but I don't turn around and complain about it.

Why people say "waaahhh, it's too easy, make it harder" when they themselves can easily make it harder by not taking advantage of the easy method makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Logged

Slartibartfast

  • Bay Watcher
  • Menaces with spikes of Tin
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2007, 01:03:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>Balance is always important.</STRONG>

I disagree, balance is only important if that's what you want in your game or if you are trying to sell the game to people who do. DF is not up for sale, so that leave the former, and we don't know what Toady wants.
Balance is just meant to enhance the fun for the players, but sometimes it doesn't, or sometimes imbalance is more fun. (For example, it was fun playing Barbarian or Knight in the largest maps in HoMM 2)
Logged
But what do I know?
Everything I say should be taken with atleast 1 tsp. of salt, and another liter of Dwarven Wine is recommended.

"I thought it was the size of the others!" said Vanon. "I guess it was just standing further away!"

gimli

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2007, 05:02:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Slartibartfast:
<STRONG>
I disagree, balance is only important if that's what you want in your game or if you are trying to sell the game to people who do. DF is not up for sale, so that leave the former, and we don't know what Toady wants.
Balance is just meant to enhance the fun for the players, but sometimes it doesn't, or sometimes imbalance is more fun. (For example, it was fun playing Barbarian or Knight in the largest maps in HoMM 2)</STRONG>


You obivously don't have any idea that whatcha talking about mate.
We all know, that the AI invasions now are absolutely pointless, just because of these traps and defenses what is making the player immortal.
But let's take a look at this again. Kylaer says, that he just won't use the traps/defenses.
Fine! That is what I do now also, however, things gonna change mates. The Army ARC will be implented soon. That way if the player would like to send out armies, he won't have enough soldiers left to defend the fortress properly. What will you do then? Yes you will build traps and defenses. Thus the AI invasions will be screwed.
..but let me continue.. Since the player will have to use the defense  systems and the traps, the AI must know how to use them also. Or else, the player will be invincible and the AI will be screwed. This is not just imbalanced, but also not fun.
However as I've pointed out like 3 times so far, but some people still don't understand it sadly, both the human and the AI invasions will be pointless, since all armies will die a horrible death via the traps/defenses.

So after the Army ARC is fully functional...

Case A.

The player is using traps/defense systems.
The AI is not using traps/defense systems.
Conclusion: The AI is screwed. Fun? I don't think so.

Case B.

The player is using traps/defense systems.
The AI is using traps/defense systems.
Conclusion: Both the AI and the human armies will be unable to do damage. Fun? I don't think so.

Case C.

The player is not using traps/defense systems.
The AI is not using traps/defense systems.
Conclusion: The human player might be able to conquer AI cities, however the human player's fortress is too weak to defend against a proper siege, since most of the military forces will be away from the fortress. Fun? I don't think so. The player would be forced to use traps/defenses.

Case D.

Traps/defense systems are nerfed or lets say _BALANCED_ properly.

The player is using traps/defense systems.
The AI is using traps/defense systems.
Conclusion: This would give a chance for the invaders to occupy a city/fortress even when the traps/defenses are up. The player _AND_ the AI could invade other cities and their home fort/city wouldn't be invincible because of the traps/def. systems. Why? Because the balanced traps/defenses are only offering the right amount of protection, and not invulnerability.
Thus military will be needed to stay in the fort all the time. Fun? Yes this would be fun. Military action _WITH_ traps and defense systems.

[ January 25, 2007: Message edited by: gimli ]

Logged

Fieari

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2007, 06:22:00 pm »

By the way, when I said ladders earlier, I meant portable bridges, to cross water/lava moats.
Logged

Aquillion

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2007, 06:24:00 pm »

The thing is, though, that Dwarf Fortress is not primarily a military strategy game.  A good layout will always, always make the player all but immune to 'common' invasions, the sorts that come along every year or so later on.

Why?  Because as far as repelling regular invasions goes, setting up defenses is the gameplay.  Yes, we can give some orders to squads, but those are limited and plainly not intended to give the player military-tactics-level control over defending forces.  In other words, if the player can't arrange a setup to repel invading forces, they're basically going to be going for a crap shoot every year later on, which is both not balanced and no fun.

These regular low-level goblin invasions are not, in and of themselves, intended to be a major problem to a well-set-up fortress, no more than food or wood supplies are a major problem to a well-set-up fortress.  They're one of the many challenges the player has to meet, but they're not supposed to dominate the game to the point where the player has to drop everything they're doing each year to run a Command & Conquer-style defense.  If you want that sort of desperate ZOMG GOBLIN RUSH gameplay, go play something designed for it, like an RTS.

Naturally, the methods the player uses to cope with invading armies do have costs...  Lava-based defenses require breaching the magma river with all its attendant threats, and opening a long channel down much of your fortress, to the point where magma creatures could concievably attack you from both sides.  Some creatures are immune to fire, while there is a constant risk that something (a fire-immune creature, a dying critter, a berserk dwarf) could damage part of your magma/steam-structure and render it useless, stuck, or worse, flood parts or all of your fortress with magma or water.  A goblin might sneak in and pull a lever at the wrong time, killing people.  There are all sorts of ways it could go wrong.

Essentially, my feeling about dwarf fortress' gameplay is that it is divided into a series of challenges that are, ultimately, overcomable.  Food seems like the main issue at first; then you get a good farm running and it fades to almost nothing.  Nobles and immigrants seem like a horrible disaster; then you get good production going and they're easy.  Likewise, low-level invasions are a threat at first, but in the end can be reduced to a minor annoyance at worst by proper defenses...  for it to work any other way would, in my mind, simply not fit in with the Dwarf Fortress way of doing things.

[ January 25, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

Logged
We don't want another cheap fantasy universe, we want a cheap fantasy universe generator. --Toady One

gimli

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2007, 06:30:00 pm »

Aquillion - Have you read Toady's plans? The game will be much more military oriented in the future, and I like it. Right now, DF is like sim city. You build up your fort without any real goals. What? You must kill some demons at the end? That is no challenge. Military/diplomacy is the way to go, and according to the dev plans that is what we will get someday. Conquering enemy cities, destroying other empires, making strong alliances...yes now that is something! Thus, these things will have to be balanced, or else the dev plans cannot be properly completed.
Logged

Sucker Punch

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2007, 08:53:00 pm »

A major problem with sieges is that, as has been mentioned, the point was to starve the enemy and cut off supply lines.   Good fortress can be/are completely self sufficient.   An easy fix for that is affecting the water supply.   The underground river basically supplies food, drink, and wood.   If the enemy could poison the water or something like that, it could severely cripple that.
Logged

Aquillion

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2007, 09:24:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>Aquillion - Have you read Toady's plans? The game will be much more military oriented in the future, and I like it. Right now, DF is like sim city. You build up your fort without any real goals. What? You must kill some demons at the end? That is no challenge. Military/diplomacy is the way to go, and according to the dev plans that is what we will get someday. Conquering enemy cities, destroying other empires, making strong alliances...yes now that is something! Thus, these things will have to be balanced, or else the dev plans cannot be properly completed.</STRONG>
Those are going to be completely new sorts of challenges, involving completely new challenges--he's mentioned more detailed invasions from the depths, invasions lead by evil spellcasting liches, that sort of thing.  The reason why I kept talking about chronic 'low level' invasions is because that's all we have now, and yes, I assume the player will always be able to set up basically invulnerable defenses against those.  Expecting goblins on beak dogs to pose a serious threat to an established fortress in an open siege is silly.
Logged
We don't want another cheap fantasy universe, we want a cheap fantasy universe generator. --Toady One

Slartibartfast

  • Bay Watcher
  • Menaces with spikes of Tin
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2007, 05:15:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>
You obivously don't have any idea that whatcha talking about mate.</STRONG>

You obviously have zero conversational skills.
quote:
Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG> *BLAH**BLAH**BLAH*Fun? I don't think so.</STRONG>

That is what you think. And since Toady does whatever the hell he pleases - that means that what you think barely matters.
quote:
Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>Fun? Yes this would be fun.</STRONG>

Again, you may find that fun, other people might not.
The deciding factor in the end is Toady.
Logged
But what do I know?
Everything I say should be taken with atleast 1 tsp. of salt, and another liter of Dwarven Wine is recommended.

"I thought it was the size of the others!" said Vanon. "I guess it was just standing further away!"

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2007, 06:32:00 am »

I completly agree with Gimli about this. When I see the message that I am being invaded...I am just like..."so what?". Basically I don't even care about invasions now, cuz my defenses are destroying everything without any probs. So yup, invasions -as it is now- are pretty much pointless and boring. I can just only hope that the new ARMY ARC will change this...but I doubt it, if some part of the game won't be changed. Yep the trap-defense system is what imma talking about also. They are just way too good. It's like a god mode.   :roll:
Logged

Slartibartfast

  • Bay Watcher
  • Menaces with spikes of Tin
    • View Profile
Re: It is way too easy to beat the invasion forces!
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2007, 06:42:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>I completly agree with Gimli about this. When I see the message that I am being invaded...I am just like..."so what?". Basically I don't even care about invasions now, cuz my defenses are destroying everything without any probs. So yup, invasions -as it is now- are pretty much pointless and boring. I can just only hope that the new ARMY ARC will change this...but I doubt it, if some part of the game won't be changed. Yep the trap-defense system is what imma talking about also. They are just way too good. It's like a god mode.    :roll:</STRONG>

So just open up the console and type /godmode off  (ie don't use traps/magma defences/steam defences/water defence etc.)
Logged
But what do I know?
Everything I say should be taken with atleast 1 tsp. of salt, and another liter of Dwarven Wine is recommended.

"I thought it was the size of the others!" said Vanon. "I guess it was just standing further away!"
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9