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[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Yeffers:
<STRONG>I never build steam/bridge/flooding defences simply because I like seeing my Hammer Lords and Elite Markesdwarves send the goblins running. This seems to me to be more "dwarven", at least in my mind. I think the seiges are fine as they are. If you want more interesting sieges, I would recommend not using the foolproof defence measures.

On another note, I think if invaders had the ability to mine through walls, this could lead to serious frustration. Can you really say you would not be annoyed by the AI randomly digging in your fortress and mucking up your whole design></STRONG>

Mate, please read my post above, or Maximus's post. You will understand that what is the point in this thread. Invasions are totally boring as it is now, and easy to resolve. Even with military its easy to resolve. With traps etc...its a joke! This is why the invasion part of the game should be changed drastically. Real military action is a must have, I think Toady scripted in the sieges because its fun, but sadly now its just a way to get yourself weapons etc. easily, and its VERY far from a real challenge.

[Yeffers]

Ok fair enough, some of the things you listed I think would be pretty cool, such as having goblins avoid traps after they have seen them, having crafters that can pass bodies of water etc. But I just don't see a fun way that would enable goblins to get past rooms flooded with lava. It seems to me that having miner enemies is a recipe for frustration, unless there was a way that the empty space could be filled in again.

[wereboar]

while it's a fantasy game it also claims to be realistic in a way. if you want a challenge - restrict yourself.
you're just building ultra-mighty magma+steem+traps defence and when dim and savage-minded goblins come and die there instantly, you're like: hey why weren't they wearing power armours? or why weren't they flying? or why didn't mechanically inept goblins have a way to overcome my high-tec defences? because they're goblins.

it's the same thing as to drop a nuke on invasion forces and say - meh, where's the challenge?

[slMagnvox]

quote:Originally posted by Yeffers:
<STRONG>I never build steam/bridge/flooding defences simply because I like seeing my Hammer Lords and Elite Markesdwarves send the goblins running....</STRONG>

Thats more like it.  Gamplay choices exist and it is good.  Your only arguement is with yourself, Tormy.  Have you turned a siege with nothing but soldiers and the odd trap?  Want some real military action?

quote:Real military action is a must have...

Shut down the steam and meet the goblins at the river.  Heh, get cut up with arrows.

[aeroue]

quote: As a player, I don't want to fight goblins and kobolds at all, I want to trade with them. Heck, I'll even give them supplies so they can go off and kill the other dwarves so long as everyone leaves my fortress alone. Where's the option for that?

That would be cool, rebel against the evil king that sent just 7 of you to some hell-hole and ally with the goblins to attack him.

[Omniarch]

I that magma defense will always be too powerful as they are right now, but I have an idea.  What if everytime you flooded with magma it hardened to obsidian?  If you had toe redig out the front of your fort every time you might be a little slower to let the lava flow.

Also, goblins need ways to disarm traps, and something like a battering ram to knock down doors.

[ January 17, 2007: Message edited by: Omniarch ]

[ricemastah]

undoubtedly it would be annoying to hav e your fortress get filled up with obsidian everytime u decided to magma the world... but hey an unlimited supply of obsidian aint to abd... and by the time u set up that defense im sure that u would have a few legendary miners... how long would it take to clear out anyway? not too long  im sure

to the whole siege idea... as mentioned before the greatest strength of goblins is not their tactics nor their courage... but their numbers! having sieges become huge in the sense of not 30 or 40 attackers but several hundred! sadly it wont address the whole magma flood thing... but for anyone willing to fight out long sieges more enemies is really the key. that and having more of them die before a retreat. but yea... toady shouldn't be bothering with a nerfing of the defense strategies

[Omniarch]

quote:Originally posted by ricemastah:
<STRONG>undoubtedly it would be annoying to hav e your fortress get filled up with obsidian everytime u decided to magma the world... but hey an unlimited supply of obsidian aint to abd... and by the time u set up that defense im sure that u would have a few legendary miners... how long would it take to clear out anyway? not too long  im sure

to the whole siege idea... as mentioned before the greatest strength of goblins is not their tactics nor their courage... but their numbers! having sieges become huge in the sense of not 30 or 40 attackers but several hundred! sadly it wont address the whole magma flood thing... but for anyone willing to fight out long sieges more enemies is really the key. that and having more of them die before a retreat. but yea... toady shouldn't be bothering with a nerfing of the defense strategies</STRONG>

The only problem with hueg sieges is the massive slowdown.  Things get bad with just 20-30 goblins, imagine with 200!

[Tormy]

Yeah the biggest problem is the lava flood. There should be an easy way for the goblins to bypass traps and water [special units with disarm traps and building some stuff over water], but magma....hm..maybe there is a way. Like someone has mentioned after some time the flooded lands should cool down, and the magma should turn into useless material, definitely not obisidian. Also as a side effect, the original magma channel should turn into some useless terrain. Only the magma river should remain in position after a successfull flood. Clearing this terrain should take enormous amount of time. This could work imo, since the players wouldnt be able to flood the world all the time when they want.

I also agree that the number of the invaders should be much higher, especially later in the game. Give them some more powerful creatures/units also.

Just a question: Can we change these things in the game? I know that we can add/change units etc, but can we change the invasion script? [unit number, type etc]

[ January 17, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[gimli]

Now that the Army ARC will be made, military action will kick in.  

[psychologicalshock]

I think the hardened rock is a good idea, that way you have to clear it up every time you want to do it again. Thus you'd only get to do it once a siege and quite possibly the goblins will catch on to that:sending a wave of miners after you flood the world and kill the initial wave. Thus, lava wouldn't be effective in an infinite fashion.

[Gigalith]

The argument that traps/steam defense/magma/whatever don't need fixing because you can choose not to use them is flawed.

Take the game of Nethack, for example. In it, there is a "Wizard mode" where you can do anything within the limits of the engine. There is also a Wizard class, for those players who want to play a spellcaster. To enter Wizard mode, you pass an option on the command line. To play a character class, you set an option ingame. The Wizard Mode and the Wizard class are kept separate.

Now let us say that instead of using the command line, you enter wizard mode by reaching some arbitrary level in the Wizard class. In this case, the whole wizard playstyle is damaged, and players who both want to play a wizard and actually have a challenge must look elsewhere. The game as a whole diminishes as a result.

In Dwarf Fortress, a player can either have the challenge of facing invaders, or he can have a trap-intense playstyle. but not both. If a player desperately wants a game with traps and challenging invaders, he must look elsewhere.

Certainly there are such things as God-mode, cheats, invincibility, infinite ammo, and all other sorts of exploits. But such things should not be linked to an otherwise legitimate playstyle.

[ January 23, 2007: Message edited by: Gigalith ]

[gimli]

quote:Originally posted by Gigalith:
<STRONG>The argument that traps/steam defense/magma/whatever don't need fixing because you can choose not to use them is flawed.

Take the game of Nethack, for example. In it, there is a "Wizard mode" where you can do anything within the limits of the engine. There is also a Wizard class, for those players who want to play a spellcaster. To enter Wizard mode, you pass an option on the command line. To play a character class, you set an option ingame. The Wizard Mode and the Wizard class are kept separate.

Now let us say that instead of using the command line, you enter wizard mode by reaching some arbitrary level in the Wizard class. In this case, the whole wizard playstyle is damaged, and players who both want to play a wizard and actually have a challenge must look elsewhere. The game as a whole diminishes as a result.

In Dwarf Fortress, a player can either have the challenge of facing invaders, or he can have a trap-intense playstyle. but not both. If a player desperately wants a game with traps and challenging invaders, he must look elsewhere.

Certainly there is God-mode, cheats, invincibility, infinite ammo, and all other sorts of exploits. But such things should not be linked to an otherwise legitimate playstyle.</STRONG>

Right now traps/defenses = invicibility. Is this good as it is?

However, everything might change with the Army ARC, since you will send out your soldiers to attack something. All players will have to use traps/defenses in that case.

I want to see balance. We can have traps, magma and water defenses? Fine!!! Then the AI oppoments must _ALSO_ have this. I am pretty sure that it will be endless fun to see our dwarves burn because of their magma defenses, or see them getting killed 1 by 1 when they step on the traps. It will be fun to equip them with the finest weapons and armors, and see them dying in seconds.

Or what? You think that if you attack an AI fortress/city in the future, it should be easy? No sir! The AI must also know how to use these defenses, or else, the game will be screwed big time, since the player will be in god mode literically.

Imho the best what Toady could do...._NERF_ the traps and the magma/water defense, _OR_ enchance the invaders somehow.

Since regardless that you will send out your army to attack, the AI's invasion will fail, since all we need are some traps and special defenses. So basically if the AI players won't use the same defenses, the player will just setup tons of traps in the fortress combined with magma/water defense, and send out a strong army to conquer. If there won't be traps and defenses in an AI city, the game will offer no challenge absolutely.

On a second thought.....if the AI will also use these kind of traps/defense system, that won't be fun at all. The player will loose his army just like the AI invaders are loosing them.

So what is the conclusion? Nerf the traps and the defense systems!

[ January 23, 2007: Message edited by: gimli ]

[Gigalith]

I'm not quite sure what you thought I said, but you pretty much summed up what I was trying to say in the first place.  

In the middle ages, sieges were contests of who could wait the longest, the army or the besieged. In Dwarf Fortress, the besieged can simply attack them with magma/water floods or just hide inside without ever going out again.

Magma defense is a button that says "Remove siegers", and the player can press it without any repercussions. But even if pressing that button caused every civilization to declare war on the player, the player would still press it because by pressing it you get rid of any sort of siegers, including those you got from pressing it!

There is a realism double standard for Magma. Magma is about as destructive as it's real world counterpart, but real world Magma does not flow uphill. If a player had to make a huge number of steel pumps to get it up the surface, and then only for a small amount, it would become balanced again.

[Aquillion]

I think you also have to keep in mind that the gameplay, as a whole, is simply not finished yet.  Armies of goblins aren't even intended to be the main opponents; the real enemies are likely to have at least some magic at hand, aren't they?  Worrying about balance now is like playing an RPG with nothing but goblins and slimes, then wondering if all the spells and equipment are broken.

Basically, any time spent fixing the balancen now is wasted, since it's going to change completely as new features are added in any case.