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[darknight]

As it is right now, even enemy miners wouldnt be hard to defend against. Personally, I'm lava-flooding the yard. But I'm not doing it so much for defense, as I am to limit all the trash left behind. Trash that every dwarf rushes to haul away, instead of hauling all the more important things that need hauling. So I'm not really defending against the attacks, I'm defending against hundreds and thousands of extra haul jobs.

The way I see it, thats just a game tuning issue tho, and should be fixed eventually, so its temporary.

The big issue I see with invaders right now, is that they are all ground pounders. Aside from a couple odd monsters that sometimes join invasions, all the invasion troops are walkers, not swimmers or fliers. Adding swimmers would negate any water defenses. And adding more fliers would negate most lava and trap defenses. THEN things would really get hairy! Picture a hundred pegasi-mounted human invaders coming at you. How would you stop that? Steam might get some, but at least outside they could fly OVER the steam. Then what? Trapped halls could only get them when/if they land. All they would need, is some way to break thru doors, and you would have a bloody "house to house" fight inside your fortress.

Right now the game can be modded to add more fliers, but I dont know if there is a way to add fliers to invasion forces, or to get the troops to use them as mounts. But I dont think it would be hard to code that into the game. Then all that would be needed, is some way for invaders to beak down doors.

I think these things will get into the game in time.

But I think it should be limited to later invasion waves, like after year 7 or 8 maybe. That way invasions would get more dangerous over time, the way it should be in a game. That would still give new players a chance against the early waves, but give experienced players a challenge during the later waves.

I think we will be seeing this eventually. But it will likely take awhile. Toady cant just focus on this, and ignore the other things. Sieges are just one small part of the game. Its important, but so are other things.

Just my two coins worth.

[slMagnvox]

Invaders should be ground pounders.  Goblins can't fly, and if they want to cross the moat they'll have to figure out how to bridge it, not swim across fully armored.

Any shortcomings we have with seige behavior can be almost all be countered by changing our gameplay.  Hate all the junk they leave behind?  Design a Magma/Steam defense.  Want to test your soldier's mettle?  Skip the mass-traps and give the goblins a nice wide hallway into a room where they will meet your Axedwarves.  Want more advanced behavior and varied seigers?  Just hang out awhile and maybe send Bay12 a donation.  Hah.

Two things I would like addressed in the short term, and mentioned earlier, is ranged damage and goblin aggression.  Tweaking archers would make a real hand-to-hand battle more feasible.  For example, let an equipped shield give a large defensive bonus vs ranged damage allowing your soldiers an extra lease on life without altering the lethality of a goblin's arrow in the back of your fisherdwarf.  Adjusting how quickly a goblin squad will rout, perhaps linked to how threatening your map is or as simple as a SIEGE DIFFICULTY toggle in the init.txt, should give anyone hungry for more bloodshed an easy way to challenge ourselves.  Imagine a seige where every goblin fights until it is killed, anything short of mass traps and you'll still have them in the halls hacking your peasants.

[Maximus]

quote:Originally posted by slMagnvox:
Anything short of mass traps and you'll still have them in the halls hacking your peasants.

Unfortunately, if properly designed, steam defenses and smashy drawbridges can safely kill an unlimited number of siegers.  They'll have to be given the abiltiy to avoid drawbridges (and to disassemble raised ones which are presently completely impassable).  

Traps could be changed so that if they see a fellow sieger get killed on them, they could either sidestep them, have a greatly improved chance to dodge them, or maybe just be unwilling to walk over them.

Steam should probably be changed into survivable heat damage instead of its current absolute lethality.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Maximus:
<STRONG>

Unfortunately, if properly designed, steam defenses and smashy drawbridges can safely kill an unlimited number of siegers.  They'll have to be given the abiltiy to avoid drawbridges (and to disassemble raised ones which are presently completely impassable).  

Traps could be changed so that if they see a fellow sieger get killed on them, they could either sidestep them, have a greatly improved chance to dodge them, or maybe just be unwilling to walk over them.

Steam should probably be changed into survivable heat damage instead of its current absolute lethality.</STRONG>

Yeah I totally agree. Steam is way too powerful now. It should only do some damage.

Also invaders should have some counter tactic against water/lava. Like some special units carrying constructs to be placed over water and lava tiles. That way the invaders could enter to the base over water/lava also.

[wereboar]

come on, they are goblins! what kind of strategical and tactical prowess do you expect of them? a goblin invasion should have no least chance against a well fortified dwarven fortress. unless they attack from within (some kind of goblin caves or goblin village inside the same moubtain)

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by wereboar:
<STRONG>come on, they are goblins! what kind of strategical and tactical prowess do you expect of them? a goblin invasion should have no least chance against a well fortified dwarven fortress. unless they attack from within (some kind of goblin caves or goblin village inside the same moubtain)</STRONG>

In that case what is the point of the invasion at all? This is fantasy, why do you think that the goblins shouldnt have a chance to occupy a dwarven fortress?
 :eek:

[puke]

the goblin advantage is the speed of their breeding.

and running into goblins undergroud may be a real problem.  to take a page from old WFRP, imagine every dwarf fortress in the mountain range was connected by a network of tunnels.  this creates more opportunities for goblins to slip into the underground network without having to go through the front door of the fort.

it also creates more opportunity for some part of the network to accidentially bump into an underground goblin warren.

[slMagnvox]

Siege immunity isn't broken, if I want to go through the trouble of building magma and steam defenses, or flooding the outside map with lava, I should be able to run a fortress uninterupted by siegers.  Goblins shouldn't possess elaborate and specialized magma countermeasures.  This is not a shortcoming in the game's design, it is an advantage, varied gameplay choices make great games.  I was on the arguement that the shortcoming was when the player makes a gameplay choice to forgo magma defense and wants troops and traps to mix it up with the goblins.  When this is the case ranged damage is a bummer and siegers rout too soon.  I am in support of better goblin AI, simple things like trap avoision and door smashing as well as bridging moats and tunneling.

Magma defenses (as well as other tricks like smashy drawbridges) aren't really the issue, and I don't think they are broken nor do they warrant altering.  If goblins were reworked to the point where they could counter a magma defense, does that mean I will have to build one to resist a siege?

[slMagnvox]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>

Yeah I totally agree. Steam is way too powerful now. It should only do some damage.</STRONG>

Then choose not to build it instead of asking to nerf it.  This is a single-player game, its not a balance issue but a play style issue.  Some players love designing a magma defense and not mucking around with military.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by slMagnvox:
<STRONG>

Then choose not to build it instead of asking to nerf it.  This is a single-player game, its not a balance issue but a play style issue.  Some players love designing a magma defense and not mucking around with military.</STRONG>

It is logical to build these defenses. Easy to setup, not too much problem. Everyone is making them for sure. If you make it, you use it. I think you missed the point of this thread. It is FINE to have these defences, since everyone will build them anyways, I pointed out that the invaders should have the chance to counter these defenses. Traps, lava, water, everything. The game would be much more fun regarding invasions in that case, since you would have to take much more attention to break the sieges. Of course if the invasion armies would get an upgrade, the player should get more reward if he manages to beat the invaders.
Just think a bit, this would add much more military action into the game. Don't tell me that this wouldn't be a good addition.

[slMagnvox]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>Easy to setup, not too much problem. Everyone is making them for sure. If you make it, you use it. I think you missed the point of this thread.</STRONG>

I think you missed the point.  I don't make them.  Therefore everyone does not make them.  If you think they take the fun out of sieges you should not make them either.  Nice to have the option, right?

[Maximus]

It's a question of fun.  It's more fun to build a multi-layered defense (moats, bridges, traps, steam, siege engines, and a military) to repel siegers than to restrict yourself to just a military.  If all you need is a steam defense or a bridge or a million traps, it's less fun.  If you restrict your defenses to soldiers only, that's also less fun.

I would like a case where each layer of defense would increase your ability to repel sieges, but none of them would make you invincible.  Achieving that case would, at a minimum, require making certain defenses something less than all-powerful.

If as a player I wanted to be immune to goblin sieges, I could still choose a map without goblin contact.  Unfortunately I seem to be on such a map right now (chosen before "nearby civilizations" were added to the starting location screen).  And I'm still building elaborate defenses, just 'cause it's fun.  Maybe I'll just have to piss off the humans.  Although I'd rather have the option to continue trading with them: that's fun too.

[Emiteal]

As a player, I don't want to fight goblins and kobolds at all, I want to trade with them. Heck, I'll even give them supplies so they can go off and kill the other dwarves so long as everyone leaves my fortress alone. Where's the option for that?  :p

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Maximus:
<STRONG>It's a question of fun.  It's more fun to build a multi-layered defense (moats, bridges, traps, steam, siege engines, and a military) to repel siegers than to restrict yourself to just a military.  If all you need is a steam defense or a bridge or a million traps, it's less fun.  If you restrict your defenses to soldiers only, that's also less fun.

I would like a case where each layer of defense would increase your ability to repel sieges, but none of them would make you invincible.  </STRONG>

Absolutely correct, this is what I am trying to say. The player shouldnt be invincible ever against sieges. Right now the player is invincible with traps, steam, lava etc. Like I've said, it would be much more fun to protect yourself with everything what is possible: lava, water, military etc but you still wouldnt be invincible! Now that would be fun. That would be some real military action!

Once again, very good points Maximus, this is what I was trying to say.

[Yeffers]

I never build steam/bridge/flooding defences simply because I like seeing my Hammer Lords and Elite Markesdwarves send the goblins running. This seems to me to be more "dwarven", at least in my mind. I think the seiges are fine as they are. If you want more interesting sieges, I would recommend not using the foolproof defence measures.

On another note, I think if invaders had the ability to mine through walls, this could lead to serious frustration. Can you really say you would not be annoyed by the AI randomly digging in your fortress and mucking up your whole design>