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[Poil]

They could just have one goblin harrassing a herd and then leading them to the fort.

[ March 14, 2007: Message edited by: Poil ]

[Dwarf Fanatic]

Nice Ideas! I personally think that you can adjust the intelligence. Higher than usual? They will cut trees and throw logs into the moat. Higher? Start digging collapsing tunnels. (i.e. collaspes after 500 or more frames due to poor goblinmanship. ) Even higher?  Grand theivs mingle tihw forerunners to unlock doors and break trapps. Almost Dwarfs? Simple Catapults that are very unreliable but suitable to blow fortifications apart. Dwarfs? Fun! Nuff said.

[Dwarfu]

I think a year qualifies as necro.

Necro !!kitten!! armies attacking!

[DonerKebab]

quote:Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>

So the dwarven "capital" the fortress will have a huge advantage the magma defense that way.
You are correct, it should be hella hard to capture a capital fortress, but it shouldn't be impossible. Right now, even if 500 goblins will attack, they all will be destroyed easily, and the dwarves won't loose soldiers, if the traps/defenses are up.</STRONG>

Without finishing the thread, can I just step in and point out that anyone using magma is probably already cheating anyway?  It is laborious and close to impossible to find a viable magma location with in-game methods (non cheating).

The trap argument is still there, but really, you people need to lighten up.  Don't play with traps.  Or play only with wooden weapon traps.  Or very few traps.  Personally, I play with no traps at all and it is a blast.  Your mommy is not going to come into every game you play and stop you from cheating.

[Kazindir]

Can you pump lava around? The area I started in on friday has a volcano and I didn't cheat to get it, just started on the same tile as a named volcano on the embarkation map. It is on the other side of the river from me though and from occiaionsallu looking at the surface of the magma pool it looks to be full of fire imps, fire serpents, magma men and god knows what else...  

[Derakon]

quote:Originally posted by DonerKebab:
<STRONG>Without finishing the thread, can I just step in and point out that anyone using magma is probably already cheating anyway?  It is laborious and close to impossible to find a viable magma location with in-game methods (non cheating).</STRONG>

It is downright trivial to find volcanos if that's all you care about, since they show up on the region map (the middle map). It's considerably harder to find, say, a map with magma, flux, trees, a sedementary layer, infinite fresh water, all four civs, sand, and no aquifer, but it's entirely doable; shouldn't take more than an hour, say, of scanning through likely-looking spots for lava vents.

That's not to say it's easy, but it's certainly doable. It'd be nice if it were easier (not to find the "hidden" features, like chasms and adamantine; just the ones that are visible from the embark screen), but it's not impossible without cheating.

Edit: yes, you can pump magma, but you need to use bauxite, iron, steel, or adamantine blocks, pipes, and corkscrews (and only the blocks can be bauxite). Stack a gear mechanism on top of the pump and a windmill on the mechanism to power the pump; dwarves would just get burned.

[ April 21, 2008: Message edited by: Derakon ]

[ikkonoishi]

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
[QB]It is downright trivial to find volcanos if that's all you care about, since they show up on the region map (the middle map). It's considerably harder to find, say, a map with magma, flux, trees, a sedementary layer, infinite fresh water, all four civs, sand, and no aquifer, but it's entirely doable; shouldn't take more than an hour, say, of scanning through likely-looking spots for lava vents.

That's not to say it's easy, but it's certainly doable. It'd be nice if it were easier (not to find the "hidden" features, like chasms and adamantine; just the ones that are visible from the embark screen), but it's not impossible without cheating.
QB]

In the 2d version which this thread is discussing magma is guaranteed and using it is as easy as making a channel from the magma river to the outside. It was actually easy to flood the entire outside world with lava.

[Derakon]

quote:Originally posted by ikkonoishi:
<STRONG>In the 2d version which this thread is discussing magma is guaranteed and using it is as easy as making a channel from the magma river to the outside. It was actually easy to flood the entire outside world with lava.</STRONG>

In the 3d version, which Doner Kebab was discussing, magma is not guaranteed and using it is quite dangerous. It is actually easy to flood the entire fortress with lava.

Believe me, I'm quite aware of the context in which my statement was made.  

[Fualkner]

Erm... perhaps I'm missing something but... the main thing here seems to be that goblins run from your traps. Couldn't you just add a [NOFEAR] tag to their .txt file? Also, just change your behavior if the magma is too deadly.

[Slappy Moose]

quote:Originally posted by CharonX:
<STRONG>
Sooner or later your entire defense would be circumvented without a way to plug the hole.</STRONG>

Exactly. I HATE seeing random and useless tunnels everywhere.

Also, again, Dwarf Fortress is as hard as you want it to be. Don't bitch and moan because you make lines of weapon traps, with a lava moated wall and a death pit bridge after that right in front of your entrance.

Just take that away and start using actual soldiers if you want a challenge.

[Derakon]

quote:Originally posted by Slappy Moose:
<STRONG>Exactly. I HATE seeing random and useless tunnels everywhere.</STRONG>

You're replying to a post that was made ages ago, but in any event, this will be much less of a problem once rewalling has a better interface; in the meantime it's mainly cosmetic damage. Note that when that post was made, rewalling wasn't even possible.

[Slappy Moose]

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>You're replying to a post that was made ages ago, but in any event, this will be much less of a problem once rewalling has a better interface; in the meantime it's mainly cosmetic damage. Note that when that post was made, rewalling wasn't even possible.</STRONG>

But my point remains valid.

[ April 21, 2008: Message edited by: Slappy Moose ]

[Hematite]

I'm with the "If you don't like it, don't use it" crowd. I have a couple of things to add though.

Magma: As mentioned above, not such an issue in the 3D version since it's rare. Fun, but likely to be much less effective once invaders are flying or more intelligent. Add ladder/bridge building to invaders and it won't be more than a speed bump. I'd also love to see gremlins along the lines of kobold thieves who sneak around and disconnect mechanisms   Exciting times, when you pull the lever and find out that the floodgate holding your magma back isn't connected right now.

Traps: Restrict yourself to single-weapon traps or maybe bow traps which must be reloaded to make them less useful. Simulate mine fields by leaving a clear path through the traps and designating the pathing cost of the trap squares as very high so your dwarves avoid them.

Turtling: pulling up the bridges and hiding when there's a siege might seem cheap, but it's currently a personal choice and it's easy to come up with role playing reasons to not cut your fortress off from the world. Fortresses aren't as self sufficient any more either; I understand tree farming requires randomly striking an underground river in the 3D version and while you can cordon off part of the upper world for your wood needs, that's still a very deliberate and time consuming effort to make, which you can just NOT DO if it seems wrong to you.

In my fortresses I always try to maximise opportunities for trade, even if I don't need anything - which requires at least a partially open fortress. It's a personal challenge, as others have said. In the future I would love to see some extra effects from trading, such as happy thoughts from fine imported goods and happy/unhappy thoughts from mail delivery or lack thereof. But I still think it's great to have the choice to cower in fear if that's your style.

I'm sure once the army arc is in it will be impractical to turtle behind a lava moat and send your armies to conquer the world - I expect diplomacy and combined forces will be integral to making a dent in opposing civs, and if the diplomats get slaughtered by the goblins camped outside your fort that's going to be very hard.Toady seems to have a good instinct for gameplay, and the current invasion forces are very much a mildly amusing place holder.

I'm going to post another comment about difficulty and balance between the player and the computer because I suspect most people have stopped reading this one by now  

[Hematite]

Balance between player/computer and the existence of over-powered traps

I'm relatively new to this (the board calls me an escaped lunatic... I haven't escaped from anywhere) even though I'm a seasoned gamer. Some of the game features which could be considered exploits, such as lava, deadly traps, cage traps and entirely self-supporting fortresses are extremely useful for learning the game.

I'm still getting the hang of how to train a military and defend my fortress. Even though I understand the end result I'm aiming for, I still get tripped up by technical details. In my last fortress I tried to use military dwarves instead of traps because I didn't know any better; my military dwarves got slaughtered by half a dozen goblin hammerers because they were poorly trained and armed, and I abandoned my undefended fort rather than having my lovely craftsdwarves massacred. I didn't have a proper metalworking system set up, so I was using piecemeal imported armour and bone bolts. This time I've set up a trap perimeter to keep me safe while I get the mining, crafting and training sorted.

While I agree that it is nice to build a combined defence rather than relying on just traps or soldiers, the ability to choose which challenges to deal with is EXTREMELY important for new players. If I could not build deadly traps I would need to learn how to properly arm and train soldiers (with all the economics that entails) and lose my fortress every time until I got it right.

Toady is very good at letting the player choose the level of difficulty they want in most cases, for instance choosing different terrain types for easier or harder wild animals. Having the choice of over-powered traps and the ability to either ignore trade if you want to turtle or rely heavily on it if you can't produce everything yourself makes the game much more approachable for new players while allowing veterans to restrict themselves for more challenge.

[gerkinzola]

just everyone quit your whinging and give goblins and maybe trolls [TRAPAVOID] so you have to come up with elaborate death traps to kill them