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[ToonyMan]

@Luckyowl:

This really came across twisting words and trying to make me look scummy. Even when I had a good reason to say what I posted. Web, you're really ticking my scum reader. All that unnecessary words when you could've just said. "I guess 3, because if I ran a game of 12 there will be 3." And why even suspected SD? When he was the one who ask how many mafia there were?! Like..cmon...

So Webadict is scum because he said there's 3 mafia? Why isn't that a reasonable conclusion to make?

I would be pointing out how his hyperactive shitstorm posting is like his play on Day 3 of Vengeful 13, as mafia.

I do think Web is bullying the newbies Luckyowl and Secretdorf unfairly and drawing the ire of Hector and SHADOWdump unproductively, but there's certain players I would like to hear from, such as Vector.

...but Luckyowl’s behaviour  so far has made that a comfortable place to settle his vote. His passiveness can be explained to some extent by the lack of activity of the town in general, though that doesn’t explain away his lack of initiative in trying to get that going beyond telling me off.

To be frank, that's just who I am. The same way Caz will get paranoid, or how TricMagic will always do something to make himself look scummy. It's sort of the flaw of my character, not all of us can easily fit a perfect town. That's why it's good to know people's habit. Like I know SD is town 100%. He's pretty capricious when it comes to his vote. Also, if he was scum his scum team would've give him some tip on how to act like town. The fact we're not seeing any sign of coaching, makes me believe that SD is town who has no scum influences. You can WIFOM and say, this is there plan after all. But, I doubt this. As this is quite unhelpful not only for SD but for his scum team. So, there's no way he's scum. 

This reasoning makes sense to me, but you can't say "there's no way he's scum". How do you know SD is town 100%?

[webadict]

I do think Web is bullying the newbies Luckyowl and Secretdorf unfairly and drawing the ire of Hector and SHADOWdump unproductively, but there's certain players I would like to hear from, such as Vector.

I do think Web is bullying the newbies

What. Do you have a definition for bullying that doesn't exist in my Merriam-Webster? Explain to me how I am being anything but fair to them, please.

[Vector]

RVS Response

Vector: I really don't understand what's RVS. So I'll if you can explain what's the purpose of RVS and do you think I should just wait for day 2 to talk.

Random Voting. We need to start the game somehow, so we might as well vote for a random person and see what happens.

You should not wait for Day 2. That is a bad idea.

Vector, why were you the first to react when I asked to join?

Probably cuz I'm so starved for human interaction that I've been madly F5ing, hence I was fastest on the draw. Finally spent some time with a friend yesterday!

Vector, you have a day ability that is a 50% inspect or 50% kill, do you fire it on Day 1? Which player?

I think I would wait for late D1, or early D2 so that if I accidentally hit town with a kill it will provide some data on interactions/etc., but if I get an inspect + confirmed townie, there's some buffer to manage the fallout before LYLO.

(Obviously it's better to inspect or kill scum, but I'm thinking about worst case scenarios). As for the person . . . probably Toaster. Useful as a CT and hard for me to read.

But Vector, are you Mafia?

Nope

You can't lie to me.

BEEP BEEP BEEP FALSEHOOD DETECTED

Vector: Will you try to be more assertive in this game?

no

Vector, do you think LuckyOwl can be trusted to lead the town at LYLO?

No, previous experience would suggest "obviously not." I find it interesting that you're here to draw attention away from the Secretdorf wagon that suddenly started forming, NQT.

LuckyOwl is terrible to LYLO with. That doesn't mean they're scum.

But, uh, mostly because Vector is a Mafia badass. Keep up, guys.

Nice buddying

Mainly because, I want to see what Vector will do to confirm Wubba dubba as town. If it's not to my liking then I'm happy to vote Wubba Dubba with no remorse.

Now why on earth do you think I would do that LOL

[webadict]

Nice buddying

That's not gonna stop, kiddo. At least, it ain't gonna stop until you're shown to be Town or scum. Actually, it probably still won't stop at that point.

Got any hard takes?

[Luckyowl]

@Luckyowl:

This really came across twisting words and trying to make me look scummy. Even when I had a good reason to say what I posted. Web, you're really ticking my scum reader. All that unnecessary words when you could've just said. "I guess 3, because if I ran a game of 12 there will be 3." And why even suspected SD? When he was the one who ask how many mafia there were?! Like..cmon...

So Webadict is scum because he said there's 3 mafia? Why isn't that a reasonable conclusion to make?

I would be pointing out how his hyperactive shitstorm posting is like his play on Day 3 of Vengeful 13, as mafia.

I do think Web is bullying the newbies Luckyowl and Secretdorf unfairly and drawing the ire of Hector and SHADOWdump unproductively, but there's certain players I would like to hear from, such as Vector.

...but Luckyowl’s behaviour  so far has made that a comfortable place to settle his vote. His passiveness can be explained to some extent by the lack of activity of the town in general, though that doesn’t explain away his lack of initiative in trying to get that going beyond telling me off.

To be frank, that's just who I am. The same way Caz will get paranoid, or how TricMagic will always do something to make himself look scummy. It's sort of the flaw of my character, not all of us can easily fit a perfect town. That's why it's good to know people's habit. Like I know SD is town 100%. He's pretty capricious when it comes to his vote. Also, if he was scum his scum team would've give him some tip on how to act like town. The fact we're not seeing any sign of coaching, makes me believe that SD is town who has no scum influences. You can WIFOM and say, this is there plan after all. But, I doubt this. As this is quite unhelpful not only for SD but for his scum team. So, there's no way he's scum. 

This reasoning makes sense to me, but you can't say "there's no way he's scum". How do you know SD is town 100%?

1.I'm not really suspicious of Webadict because he guess 3 mafia. As He pointed it out he post that before the game start and I well, didn't really notice that. So points to him on that. But what I do have a problem is his case against me was pretty weak and he is able to guess that there is 3 mafia than it shouldn't be hard for him to look and see why I brought up the possible number of mafia in the game. Instead he tried to make me scummy and at the same time bully SD. Who was the one to ask, "How many mafia are there in this game." But yes, I want to hear from Vector. Wubba Dubba is not being helpful at all...in VM 12.5 and P25. He's always leading the town and trying to scum hunt...however, in VM 13 and in this one. Webadict is seating back too much. So if Vector can somehow confirm Web as town. Then at least my paranoia can be at ease.

2. er, right, mafia is word sensitive. I'll correct it. "I'm 100% sure, that SD might be town" there not much to expand on it. Since I really don't know if he is. There's always a  possibility, but I think he's not worth the time just yet. My main focus is this buddying Web/Vector.

ToonyMan: Who do you think might be the scum so far? other than Web. My second on my scumlist is probably TricMagic. Them not posting is bothersome.  They still constantly switch their vote around...but TricMagic was town in BYOR 15..so this might just be who they are.*sigh* Anyone who can act as perfect town, even as scum might be a pychopath to some degree.   

TricMagic: Say something, do you still think I should be lynch, if so, why?

[ToonyMan]

*taps chest repeatedly*

Hmmmmm...

@Webadict:

I do think Web is bullying the newbies Luckyowl and Secretdorf unfairly and drawing the ire of Hector and SHADOWdump unproductively, but there's certain players I would like to hear from, such as Vector.

I do think Web is bullying the newbies

What. Do you have a definition for bullying that doesn't exist in my Merriam-Webster? Explain to me how I am being anything but fair to them, please.

Luckyowl and Secretdorf are the two least experienced players here. You're implicating them together. Do you really believe they're on a mafia team together or are you just going for easy pickings?


@Vector:

Vector, you have a day ability that is a 50% inspect or 50% kill, do you fire it on Day 1? Which player?

I think I would wait for late D1, or early D2 so that if I accidentally hit town with a kill it will provide some data on interactions/etc., but if I get an inspect + confirmed townie, there's some buffer to manage the fallout before LYLO.
(Obviously it's better to inspect or kill scum, but I'm thinking about worst case scenarios). As for the person . . . probably Toaster. Useful as a CT and hard for me to read.

Fair enough.


@Juicebox:
Gonna vote somebody?


PPE:
@Luckyowl:

1.I'm not really suspicious of Webadict because he guess 3 mafia. As He pointed it out he post that before the game start and I well, didn't really notice that. So points to him on that. But what I do have a problem is his case against me was pretty weak and he is able to guess that there is 3 mafia than it shouldn't be hard for him to look and see why I brought up the possible number of mafia in the game. Instead he tried to make me scummy and at the same time bully SD. Who was the one to ask, "How many mafia are there in this game." But yes, I want to hear from Vector. Wubba Dubba is not being helpful at all...in VM 12.5 and P25. He's always leading the town and trying to scum hunt...however, in VM 13 and in this one. Webadict is seating back too much. So if Vector can somehow confirm Web as town. Then at least my paranoia can be at ease.

How can Vector do this?

2. er, right, mafia is word sensitive. I'll correct it. "I'm 100% sure, that SD might be town" there not much to expand on it. Since I really don't know if he is. There's always a  possibility, but I think he's not worth the time just yet. My main focus is this buddying Web/Vector.

Okay.

ToonyMan: Who do you think might be the scum so far? other than Web. My second on my scumlist is probably TricMagic. Them not posting is bothersome.  They still constantly switch their vote around...but TricMagic was town in BYOR 15..so this might just be who they are.*sigh* Anyone who can act as perfect town, even as scum might be a pychopath to some degree.   

I can't explain it very well, but there's a very good reason I want to be sure you're not mafia and you should understand what I mean. I think you're probably wrong about TricMagic, but I agree that Webadict could be scum. I think the rest of the mafia are lurking super hard.

[Vector]

Secretdorf

there are more than 1 investigative role in this game

Would you like to explain how you know this?

I'd vote Luckyowl because it seems like they have lost hope of surviving D1.

There is absolutely no reason to do this as town.

Oh wow! A bandwagon on me! Just don't quick hammer me. Let me claim if it comes to that point as I believe some impatient town players also like to do that.

Secretdorf jumping a mile high . . .

Here's the thing:
I believe Caz's posts are something that might come from mafia because their behavior is passive which I think is a good reason to vote someone.

That's true, but at your time of writing I had also literally posted once, and it was a shitpost. There are a number of other relatively passive players (juicebox, Webadict [no direct attacks], Shadow, me) but you've been focusing on Caz rather hard.

And yet luckyowl isn't?

^

Luckyowl

I might have got a bit tunnel-vision on Caz. But I don't know who else to make a case on to save myself, so the only other bandwagon is that of Luckyowl.

Still jumping, cycling back to LuckyOwl on moderate pressure without evidence . . .

Toonyman and Vector: Starting a bandwagon already?
I was thinking if I got the role of mafia, I would vote Luckyowl, you thought the same?

Shadowdump: Hello! Between Toonyman and Vector, who is more likely scum? Why?

Everyone: Can you rate how happy you are about your role from a scale of 1(lowest) to 10(highest)?
If you were mafia, who will you want to kill based on past experience?
 If you could choose your scum partners who will they be?

Finally, I want to go back in time to highlight some of these questions in the context of the interactions above. Secretdorf quickly cycles to triangulating with Shadowdump about whether Toony and I are scum on a D1 wagon, then asks about scumkill targets, which I feel is a typical noobscum RVS question (they're nervous and looking for info on how to play). These questions are useful to ask as scum, not so useful to ask as town.

Also telling is that SD can't vote LuckyOwl (planned D1 scum vote) and also throw FoS about the bandwagon, so settles on Caz. In a little bit we see that SD keeps oscillating between Caz and LO without knowing what else to do, despite lots of other passive players being available. Noobtown mentally short-circuiting? Or noobscum at a loss due to plans cracking early?


--> Secretdorf seems to have a scum mentality.

[Vector]

Webadict:

That's because he's breadcrumbing as a Clown. That's not rolefishing, though.

I looked this up online and it seems like Clown is a mafia-aligned role. As town, there is no good reason whatsoever for you to make this throwaway, fake-pressure comment without a vote attached.

[hector13]

You can pressure people without using your vote and you should damn well know that.

 At this point, I'm a little triggered so fine. Webadict.

Well, as long as you're not voting Vector anymore, I suppose that's a win, eh? I'd honestly feel more threatened if someone like Toaster or ToonyMan voted me because they've made cases elsewhere, whereas you only voted me because you couldn't vote for people you were actually suspicious of because you were voting for Vector.

You know, writing that all out... It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, does it? But, an excuse is an excuse, I suppose.

You’re a mafia badass so you can do that yourself, ya lazy bum.

Like, Luckyowl is the easy lynch today, why are you doing scum’s work for them? You were chatting about not wanting to waste the day away around my play, yet you’re quite content to waste the day away sitting on a Luckyowl wagon, while he flails around like Magikarp!

PPE: I like this wagon and I’m petty and butthurt.

webadict

Not true. I've been reading cases as things have gone on. To dominate the thread would itself be a hindrance because I wouldn't get a chance to read additional cases. It feels entirely like you're missing the point of what I'm saying. Being a Mafia badass involves leveraging other people's information as needed and not stymieing ideas. If Luckyowl is flailing, you're suggesting I flood the thread with more cases? Why? To detract from my case on Luckyowl? I'm not being pulled into that now.

PPE: Oh neat, Luckyowl said Vector is Town. That, surprisingly, makes me more certain that Vector is Town, and they've literally only posted like once. That's... actually really cool.

Cases are things you make when you want to lynch someone. I have serious, serious doubts anyone has a case on anyone less than 24 hours into D1 when we haven’t had the entire town present yet. Bits and pieces that will eventually form parts of their case, yet, but if anyone is sure enough on anyone to be voting to lynch them yet, it is madness.

If you were sold on your case on Luckyowl, you wouldn’t give a shit about my earlier behaviour because nothing I do is going to change that. This means you want more from other players in order to get a read on them yet you do little to encourage this.


*2 episodes of Stranger Things later*

I forgot what I was doing.

Like, there’s being a mafia bad ass by letting other people talk but when there’s nobody talking you can’t just sit passively by- that’s it okay never mind I was trying to figure out why my gut is telling me you’re town and I got there. You wanted me to stop what I was doing earlier to stop people getting distracted, which is quite a town-minded thing to be doing. You suffer from pride though so you may do that as scum... but’s that’s reaching.

I still don’t like the passiveness though.

There have been like... 6 posts since I started this, which I have scanned and kinda sorta like (feeling the Secretdorf/Luckyowl scum team)

I have been summoned elsewhere, so... probably tomorrow you will hear from me.

unvote

[Vector]

juicebox

Alright, let's get started

Hector: You haven't replaced out yet, does this mean you rolled town?

LuckyOwl: What is your plan for this game? How do you plan to find scum? Are you confident that if you make it to LYLO again that you can correctly lynch scum?

Vector: Will you try to be more assertive in this game?

NQT: If you are the leader of a wagon, and a counter wagon forms against you, how will you convince town to join your wagon?

Toaster: How much impact do you think mechanics will have on this game compared to the daygame?

Secretdorf: On a scale of 1 to 10 I would have to give my role a 4.20.

This is active-lurky RVSing a la FoU from BYOR15. There are a few non-questions/non-answers (to Hector, Secretdorf), some rolefishing (for Toaster), a meta non-question (for me; unless you can point to a game where I was passive), a demoralizing question (for LuckyOwl) and a question which would be helpful for relatively inexperienced scum (to NQT).


Juicebox, who's on the scumteam?

[SHAD0Wdump]

You can pressure people without using your vote and you should damn well know that.

I'm holding my vote on Vector to ensure they have pressure when they get back to respond, then I'll move my vote to pressure others.

One of these things is not like the other.

These definitely correlate, I was clearly exercising that when I was drilling into you. Or do you see yourself as an impregnable fortress of the mafia subforum with all that experience?

 Anyway, I'm fully comfortable for the moment with my vote resting on you for now.


Honestly, I want some data here. So lets poke people.

NQT, Caz, Toaster: What do you think of the current situation? Hector/Luckyowl's waffling on votes? Initial bandwagon on Luckyowl? What about Toony not quite being in the limelight?

[SHAD0Wdump]

Finally, I was reading through Vector's posts to try to lock onto something to ask about, I got a couple.

Vector: Will you try to be more assertive in this game?

no

How do you expect to be able to hunt scum without asserting yourself?

Here's the thing:
I believe Caz's posts are something that might come from mafia because their behavior is passive which I think is a good reason to vote someone.

That's true, but at your time of writing I had also literally posted once, and it was a shitpost. There are a number of other relatively passive players (juicebox, Webadict [no direct attacks], Shadow, me) but you've been focusing on Caz rather hard.

How was I being passive exactly?

[Vector]

Q1 - I don't think I need to be "less passive." I am not a passive player. Therefore the answer is "no, I will not be less passive."

Q2 - You had an activity/aggression/being-paid-attention-to level in the same ballpark as Caz (e.g. not in the same ballpark as Toony) at the time that SD posted. The point is: at the time there were lots of people whose alignments weren't so clear, but SecretDorf tried to claim multiple times that they had something on Caz when they clearly didn't. And more importantly: immediately defaulted back to LuckyOwl.

[webadict]

1.I'm not really suspicious of Webadict because he guess 3 mafia. As He pointed it out he post that before the game start and I well, didn't really notice that. So points to him on that. But what I do have a problem is his case against me was pretty weak and he is able to guess that there is 3 mafia than it shouldn't be hard for him to look and see why I brought up the possible number of mafia in the game. Instead he tried to make me scummy and at the same time bully SD. Who was the one to ask, "How many mafia are there in this game." But yes, I want to hear from Vector. Wubba Dubba is not being helpful at all...in VM 12.5 and P25. He's always leading the town and trying to scum hunt...however, in VM 13 and in this one. Webadict is seating back too much. So if Vector can somehow confirm Web as town. Then at least my paranoia can be at ease.

So--and obviously let me get this straight--it ISN'T suspicious to use a post that happened before the game that contained potentially alignment-related information as a means to suspect a player? And so when they retaliate using information you posted that showed that you literally projected that accusation... That's... That's normal behavior to you? It doesn't deserve for you to be suspected?

I think you're reaching for straws if you somehow think I'm not Town because I'm "not being helpful". I think you're saying that I'm not proving you to be Town. But, I'm doing the thing that everyone should be doing with you. I'm lynching you.

You want to know the truth? I'm giving you a higher burden of proof because if I have to be stuck in a game with you, it better be because you deserve to be alive. The problem you're gonna face is that if I flip and you're Town, you're gonna be capital F screwed unless you can prove yourself Town. Because even if you were Town, you're basically a Survivor. And if I die, I will call for your lynch with my last breath. Because you obviously can't be trusted. Like, not a joke, I have more faith in every single other member of the Town.

Like, I honestly don't even really think you're the most suspicious player anymore, but if I wrote down how I feel about your playstyle, I'd be banned from this forum.

I looked this up online and it seems like Clown is a mafia-aligned role. As town, there is no good reason whatsoever for you to make this throwaway, fake-pressure comment without a vote attached.

It... is? I suppose that actually shows role-related information from me, because I couldn't find my role on any list, nor could I find any sort of Clown-related role in my search. I assumed that a Clown was just a custom rolename, like mine was. I suppose that's what I get for assuming, eh?

What. Do you have a definition for bullying that doesn't exist in my Merriam-Webster? Explain to me how I am being anything but fair to them, please.

Luckyowl and Secretdorf are the two least experienced players here. You're implicating them together. Do you really believe they're on a mafia team together or are you just going for easy pickings?

I don't even know why I bother with posting, since it's clear that you're not reading.

Or do you see yourself as an impregnable fortress of the mafia subforum with all that experience?

Yes, finally someone gets it.

[hector13]

@SHADOWDump

Excuse me, but I don’t waffle on votes. The only vote I’ve made so far that didn’t mean anything was on Caz, an RVS vote.

You may think you can pressure people without a vote, I prefer to put my money where my mouth is.

Presently there is enough time in the day that I don’t need to be voting someone, and I’ll not be doing anything about it until tomorrow.

Waffling. Pfft. *shakes his head*