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Author Topic: Human Cities  (Read 1760 times)

JAL28

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Human Cities
« on: January 10, 2021, 02:17:25 am »

When a human civilization reaches a certain critical mass(either through having a large amount of sites or a large enough population, maybe even both)the human civ will found a city in the center of their sphere of influence(or near a large amount of other human sites). Cities will be different from towns in that most, if not all of their land is populated with multi-floored, furnished(with actual beds and stuff) stone block houses, and instead of a central keep, the city itself is based around the “town center” an area which usually consists of a circular road and at the center either a pond or a grass patch with a tall, uncuttable tree on it. Cities will also have a lot of special features, like very large storehouses and “factory” blocks full of smelters, wood furnaces and forges, to large strip mines extending down to the first cavern layer(which is walled off). Much of the city will be encompassed by massive 5 block walls, and if the human civ in question has connections to a dwarven civ that knows about siege engines/have researched siege engines themselves, there will be ballistae inside the ground level of the walls, which will be carved into fortifications to allow them to fire out of them.

Cities will instantly become the capital when they are founded, and there will be a large influx of migrants from surrounding hamlets/towns into the city until it hits its maximum population of around 20,000. They are also the capital of innovation and many, many scholars often come to cities to ponder and write books/scrolls, as well as research new technologies. At the city center a large tower made of stone can be found. This is usually where the royalty have their quarters, from priests at the bottom to the law-giver and other high ranking nobles at the top. This building is usually heavily guarded by miltia and the law-giver’s quarters are guarded by 10 legendary lords, making killing them extremely difficult if they have already moved to a city.

Instead of open marketplaces, shop-owners own their own portions of the building where they do business. Sewers under the city are often rife with criminals and even necromantic elements, though militia occasionally clear out these sewers.

If a city is captured or razed(either through megabeasts or sieges, though the latter will likely be more common), a human civ will redirect all it’s resources to recapture or reclaim it, because it is that important for them.

Though it usually occurs in worldgen, it is possible for a human civilization to found a city during a play through of fortress/adventurer mode. If this happens, the event will be announced through a mega-message in green text. While there is no large impact in both fortress and adventurer mode, dwarves in fortress mode will feel “admiration upon the founding of a great city” which gives them a happiness boost. This occurs regardless of the human civ’s diplomatic status(even with no contact or at war).

Also, the city will always be active, meaning that even at night there will still be humans walking around and selling things and operating workshops. The shops open in the day will close while other ships will only open in the night.

Finally, cities, unlike basically every other site do not have a fixed site area; they can expand their area to a max of a 3x3 space on the world map, covering 9 tiles worth of space. Any caves/lairs/camps in the way will be completely bulldozed, even adventurer sites, where the adventurer will move into the city blocks instead. They usually expand on all sides slowly, but can occasionally expand in one diagonal direction. No sites will be near any plausible city claim areas.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 07:51:36 am by JAL28 »
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ArchimedesWojak

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2021, 11:15:03 am »

+1
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Azerty

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2021, 06:44:32 pm »

Metropolises might be a good idea to implement. But, first, economy will have to be reworked to given areason to have these: for exemple, a town in the mouth of a river might become a major hub.
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JAL28

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2021, 06:32:03 pm »

The issue with making cities from towns is that they would likely have no place to grow, because they are usually surrounded by hamlets/monasteries/castles. I don’t think reducing the area/destroying these sites would be good...rather have caves die that literal hamlets

Seeing as procedural technology progress is allegedly going to be added and Sciences stuff kinda exists already, cities would probably be the best way to get research. I mean, sheltered by walls, heavily armed militia, ballistae everywhere, what could be safer to study in? Surely better than that fortress where you will probably be forcefully recruited into fighting that siege and die. Also they are to an extent flexes/show-offs by human civs to show how far they have grown, like a statue in function.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2021, 06:18:46 am »

Cities naturally engulf smaller neighboring hamlets.  That's "urban sprawl" (or suburban sprawl) in a nutshell.  Castles will naturally evade being completely unrecognizably being engulfed, but having a castle wind up completely surrounded by a town isn't that terrible, unless there is a good reason to put, say, a fortress on a border or behind some sort of Great Wall of China-style fortification, although in a case like a border, you just naturally stop the town at the border (unless it merges into a town on the other side of a border, as towns often do along peaceful borders).  It's only the monastery that is likely to be abandoned and moved further away as they stop being peaceful places.  (Also, things like werecreature dens are something towns would expand into, and those would necessarily be the sort of thing that would require confrontation to clear out.)

I remember having conversations about this years ago when cities were first being built, but generally, cities exist because there is one large primary source of employment, and everyone else is just trying to be physically close to that employer, either because they are laborers at that primary employer or because they are secondary employers that support that primary employer, with teritary employers crowding around those secondary employers. 

In the case of a port town at the mouth of a river, for example, the docks where goods are transfered from river barges to oceangoing vessels are a major employer.  Secondary employers are those that make ship-related goods, from shipyards to weavers of rope to taverns and boarding houses, and those will then need hemp farms for the rope fibers, woodcutters for the lumber, and food farms for the food.  Especially in a world without cars, there's a maximum amount of distance people will realistically want to live from their employers, and a maximum distance they can go to buy for all the commodities they need to live.

Building "up" is cost-inefficient, and in a realistic sense, it's very hard to build more than five stories with medieval technology, and three-story houses are probably all the likely less skilled laborers could build.  (There weren't building codes like we know them today in medieval times, and truly skilled craftsmen didn't make peasant apartments.)  Hence, it tends to only happen when the people are constrained.  Basically, when a city wants to expand out, but either is going past the limits of how far people will walk to their jobs, so they have to stack extra floors to compensate, or else when there is a physical barrier preventing expansion, such as a town being in a narrow valley.  (One that comes to mind is Robin Hood's Bay, which is built between steep slopes so that the town wound up building houses into the alleys between houses, creating a highly effective smuggling route, as there were passages through the insides of houses that allowed goods delivered at the docks to reach the city walls without ever touching the streets.)

And of course, there can be more than one primary employer as a city becomes large enough.  New York City became hugely important as the port at the mouth of the Hudson River, but as it became larger, it attracted other industries, like the textiles/clothing industry, which jumped from being a secondary employer to a primary employer as it grew large enough to begin producing excess and exporting its clothing around the world.  As more primary employers grow up, it effectively creates multiple city centers that create multiple overlapping cities, where people will face more pressure to move in close to these primary employers, and this tends to create the "metropolis" we think of.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2021, 06:46:37 am »

It'd be nice if everyone had a 'metropolis' style of extended site under the provision they can supply enough to it so that it makes sense, as many modern cities have only really been made possible though the extended negotiation of trade and development that certain actors for DF like merchant companies can achieve -by securing foreign goods without explicitly resorting to violence that a large empire or lots of hamlet & town founding would be able to do the same.

You can compare it to something like Beijing in the Middle Ages or London in the mid to late Victorian era both being the most populous and influencial cities of their time.

Then of course there's the fun in crippling this city and seeing it all fall apart as you pick away at its suppliers, the city starves and people flee, or is sieged outright and the dispora fills villages for many tiles around.
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JAL28

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2021, 06:31:38 pm »

Building "up" is cost-inefficient, and in a realistic sense, it's very hard to build more than five stories with medieval technology, and three-story houses are probably all the likely less skilled laborers could build.  (There weren't building codes like we know them today in medieval times, and truly skilled craftsmen didn't make peasant apartments.)  Hence, it tends to only happen when the people are constrained.  Basically, when a city wants to expand out, but either is going past the limits of how far people will walk to their jobs, so they have to stack extra floors to compensate, or else when there is a physical barrier preventing expansion, such as a town being in a narrow valley.  (One that comes to mind is Robin Hood's Bay, which is built between steep slopes so that the town wound up building houses into the alleys between houses, creating a highly effective smuggling route, as there were passages through the insides of houses that allowed goods delivered at the docks to reach the city walls without ever touching the streets.)

On one hand, this is probably quite accurate irl.

On the other hand, it isn’t exactly accurate in DF. Goblins have literally been shown carving massive towers out of stone in dark fortresses, and any daring enough overseer can create humongous statues, towers or whatever. Then there’s necromancer towers. Civilizations in DF are more that capable of constructing multi-levels buildings, and anyways such building I assume would be 3-5 stories tall(except for the main tower), which isn’t that high and very much possible. And one must remember that it will have twice the population of dark fortresses. Unlike barbaric goblins, humans probably won’t be content sleeping in crude holes dug into the ground or on the floor(out in the open). They want houses.

It'd be nice if everyone had a 'metropolis' style of extended site under the provision they can supply enough to it so that it makes sense, as many modern cities have only really been made possible though the extended negotiation of trade and development that certain actors for DF like merchant companies can achieve -by securing foreign goods without explicitly resorting to violence that a large empire or lots of hamlet & town founding would be able to do the same.

You can compare it to something like Beijing in the Middle Ages or London in the mid to late Victorian era both being the most populous and influencial cities of their time.

Then of course there's the fun in crippling this city and seeing it all fall apart as you pick away at its suppliers, the city starves and people flee, or is sieged outright and the dispora fills villages for many tiles around.

I mean, the last time economy was enabled fun was everywhere(homelessness leads to anger, anger leads to tantrum, tantrum leads to berserk, berserk leads to !!FUN!!). But I can see economy in humans, seeing as most of them are less communal that dwarves. Working class humans, wealthy humans with bling bling, homeless peasants sleeping on the streets, etc etc.

Also, the FUN will be FUN when sieging a city. Human civs treat cities like a dwarf treats his sock, they really don’t like you touching them. First they will probably send diplomats to negotiate a peace. Then sieges. Then advanced sieges with lords and smart AI that avoids traps. Then digging. maybe they even breach the HFS to attempt to bring you down as a last resort

The primary employers one could be talking about could be guilds. Perhaps once they gain enough members they become company-like entities that begin acquiring places like storehouses and factories for themselves, employing workers and paying them with coins. Honestly I can see cities as places where raw goods(like food, prepared fish, ores) are processed into finished goods(prepared meals, crafts, metals and weapons/armour) and that most of the raw goods would be imported from hamlets and towns where there is more space to rear/catch them.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 08:47:16 pm by JAL28 »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2021, 06:13:53 am »

On one hand, this is probably quite accurate irl.

On the other hand, it isn’t exactly accurate in DF. Goblins have literally been shown carving massive towers out of stone in dark fortresses, and any daring enough overseer can create humongous statues, towers or whatever. Then there’s necromancer towers. Civilizations in DF are more that capable of constructing multi-levels buildings, and anyways such building I assume would be 3-5 stories tall(except for the main tower), which isn’t that high and very much possible. And one must remember that it will have twice the population of dark fortresses. Unlike barbaric goblins, humans probably won’t be content sleeping in crude holes dug into the ground or on the floor(out in the open). They want houses.

The human cities, however, are made to look realistic.  (This serves a purpose in grounding the game compared to the more fantastical elements like treehouses made of shaped living trees.)  The cities that DF produces are, when viewed from an aerial perspective, capable of looking like a real-life medieval village, and a lot of effort went into making that the case.  Hence, yes, unrealistic buildings are certainly possible, especially when players are involved (at least, until such a time as cave-ins from something other than completely unsupported terrain are reintroduced), but that doesn't mean that DF should entirely embrace unrealistic architecture.

Also, I said five stories is the max, but I should be clear that's the max for a (mostly) vertical wall.  You can make a pyramid out of stone using very ancient techniques, obviously.  The problem is that stone is heavy, so the taller you make it, the more weight that the stone below has to support, and since you're not changing the strength of the material, just the amount of material to bear that load, the more material you have to pile in until it flares out.  The type of material you build with determines the angle at which this pyramid shape takes place.  Even modern skyscrapers use much thicker steel supports at its base compared to thinner walls near the top.  When it comes to pyramids, the angle they were built at is actually necessary - the first pyramid constructed had to be "bent" because they originally were constructing it at too steep an angle and the pyramid would not have supported its own weight.

Hence, again, you tend not to see too many buildings with floors that have people actually living on them past the fifth floor in the middle ages, because it's just too expensive and dangerous to build beyond that.  (And just look at the concept of the "rancher" - if you have plenty of land, just go ahead and make an all-ground-level house.)  Even castle keeps, which were designed to look down over the outer defenses, rarely went much taller - the walls themselves were generally only 20 feet tall.  It's only cathedrals, made of very thin walls with heavy flying buttress supports that can get up past 100 feet, and that's just supporting a the wall itself without any floors adding load to those walls.

The primary employers one could be talking about could be guilds. Perhaps once they gain enough members they become company-like entities that begin acquiring places like storehouses and factories for themselves, employing workers and paying them with coins. Honestly I can see cities as places where raw goods(like food, prepared fish, ores) are processed into finished goods(prepared meals, crafts, metals and weapons/armour) and that most of the raw goods would be imported from hamlets and towns where there is more space to rear/catch them.

It's worth noting that something like a town built around a single massive clothing factory is very much a modern idea.  It's a product of the economy of scale, which only becomes a thing that exists after the industrial revolution.  Without any reason why building tons of clothes in one city then shipping them around the world at great expense would be preferable to just sewing small amounts of clothes in small tailoring workshops, people will naturally take the one that doesn't involve the expense of transit.

90% of the world's population lives along either the coast or a river, and all the world's largest cities are in those locations.  This is because, prior to railways, water was the method by which the world was connected.  It is cheaper, safer, and sometimes even faster in the middle ages to send cargo halfway around the world via ship than to the next county over land, such is the state of what could be called "roads" during those times and the probability of banditry or wild animal attacks.  Hence, the core of nearly all cities will be a port, and the rest will be a major defensive fortification, such as a castle built on a defensive location.  (This location may be defensible because of a natural moat, such as being built in a island in the mouth of a river, which combines both concepts into one.)  Even when a city is built to exploit a natural resource, such as a logging camp, they get those logs to the cities via river, so a logging town will just be built next to whatever forest is near a river.  It's only those outlying farms (within the same county) that have to suck it up and go over land, and that's largely because it's unavoidable that farms need to spread out over large amounts of land.
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Orange-of-Cthulhu

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2021, 10:13:43 am »

Metropolises might be a good idea to implement. But, first, economy will have to be reworked to given areason to have these: for exemple, a town in the mouth of a river might become a major hub.

It just dawned on my that construction of buildings could be a mayor driver of trade.

A 5 story building needs X stone blocks X logs. The human city has not much access to stone, and making blocks is harder for them than for dwarves. Dwarves have stone a plenty, so boom, you get an order for 1000 stone blocks as the humans are looking to build stuff.
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Free_

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2021, 11:41:41 pm »

When a human civilization reaches a certain critical mass(either through having a large amount of sites or a large enough population, maybe even both)the human civ will found a city in the center of their sphere of influence(or near a large amount of other human sites). Cities will be different from towns in that most, if not all of their land is populated with multi-floored, furnished(with actual beds and stuff) stone block houses, and instead of a central keep, the city itself is based around the “town center” an area which usually consists of a circular road and at the center either a pond or a grass patch with a tall, uncuttable tree on it. Cities will also have a lot of special features, like very large storehouses and “factory” blocks full of smelters, wood furnaces and forges, to large strip mines extending down to the first cavern layer(which is walled off). Much of the city will be encompassed by massive 5 block walls, and if the human civ in question has connections to a dwarven civ that knows about siege engines/have researched siege engines themselves, there will be ballistae inside the ground level of the walls, which will be carved into fortifications to allow them to fire out of them.

Cities will instantly become the capital when they are founded, and there will be a large influx of migrants from surrounding hamlets/towns into the city until it hits its maximum population of around 20,000. They are also the capital of innovation and many, many scholars often come to cities to ponder and write books/scrolls, as well as research new technologies. At the city center a large tower made of stone can be found. This is usually where the royalty have their quarters, from priests at the bottom to the law-giver and other high ranking nobles at the top. This building is usually heavily guarded by miltia and the law-giver’s quarters are guarded by 10 legendary lords, making killing them extremely difficult if they have already moved to a city.

Instead of open marketplaces, shop-owners own their own portions of the building where they do business. Sewers under the city are often rife with criminals and even necromantic elements, though militia occasionally clear out these sewers.

If a city is captured or razed(either through megabeasts or sieges, though the latter will likely be more common), a human civ will redirect all it’s resources to recapture or reclaim it, because it is that important for them.

Though it usually occurs in worldgen, it is possible for a human civilization to found a city during a play through of fortress/adventurer mode. If this happens, the event will be announced through a mega-message in green text. While there is no large impact in both fortress and adventurer mode, dwarves in fortress mode will feel “admiration upon the founding of a great city” which gives them a happiness boost. This occurs regardless of the human civ’s diplomatic status(even with no contact or at war).

Also, the city will always be active, meaning that even at night there will still be humans walking around and selling things and operating workshops. The shops open in the day will close while other ships will only open in the night.

Finally, cities, unlike basically every other site do not have a fixed site area; they can expand their area to a max of a 3x3 space on the world map, covering 9 tiles worth of space. Any caves/lairs/camps in the way will be completely bulldozed, even adventurer sites, where the adventurer will move into the city blocks instead. They usually expand on all sides slowly, but can occasionally expand in one diagonal direction. No sites will be near any plausible city claim areas.

I wonder how a population of 20000 would work ingame?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Human Cities
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 12:30:46 am »


[/quote]
I wonder how a population of 20000 would work ingame?
[/quote]
In Adventurer, exactly as they do right now (with lag issues addressed hopefully).

In Fortress Mode I imagine you'd only be managing one part of the city, building the castle, etc. The rest (where most of the pops lived would be off-map abstracted.

Else a more abstracted Sim City style mode for full city management could be added.
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