I'm a little wary of Leafsnail being our first scum lynch, since the case on them is that they're disengaged from the game (the same as Leafscum!), and because Vector's guiding towards it, after yelling at us to stop being sheep letting them to all the work and shepherding.
I'm getting tempted by Heydude6+FoU. Heydude being scum after D1 is weird, but being the only killer is compelling. I didn't like FoU's D1 play and their investigate saying "the killer is the source of guns!" is weak. Combined, they had an interesting night that led to a strong role dying while clearing both for the action reveals.
I think either they're on a team and Tric is town, or they're both town and Tric is scum.
Leafsnail leans scummier than Vector or NJW, largely because he's the most lurky and won't claim, but they all feel similarly disengaged with the game to me.
LuckyOwl continues to read as town.
There's more of that sole night-killer nonsense, which I always will see as ridiculous and they also called Tric Scum. Ultimately, it's not much for day 3
"YOU CAN'T POINT TO ME BEING THE ONLY KILLER, THAT'S RIDICULOUS."
If the argument that you're the only one who's been killing at night is absurd, then please, point to where someone has died from someone other than you at night.
"YOU CAN'T POINT TO ME BEING THE ONLY KILLER, THAT'S RIDICULOUS."That's another strawman. I made my argument in my mega post and I'll gladly bring up the relevant excerpt again.
Those who say that I was the sole person attempting mafia nightkills are insane because why would the mafia cut their killing power in half? What gambit reward is worth doing that for?
Before we continue that train of thought, let's briefly entertain the idea that I acted alongside my buddies during day 1 and acted alone during day 2 for the sake of a gambit. If I did that, then I am increasing the chances of there being no kills that night since if something happens to me such as a block, protect, or a redirect, then there is no backup kill. Scum risk losing their most reliable ability for a gimmicky mindgame at a point where they succesfully busted the two masons alongside the modkilling on one of their most active townies (ie. Dolores).
That's not how discussions work. I made my argument and now you have to refute what I say in it. What you're describing isn't the only way to defend against the idea of me being the sole nightkiller. You really don't want to acknowledge the idea that maybe the town successfully defended themselves against the mafia two nights in a row.
During the first night, the juiciest targets were the masons who protected themselves with a fast-hatter boosted hide action. Already it's plausbile that the scum wasted the kill on them and maybe even a fast-hatter badge too, though they weren't the only people with protects that night. The second night, Tric protected a lot of people. It's likely scum hit one of them.
What I'm proposing above is very reasonable, though unfortunate for the mafia.
Either way, I find it hard to beleive how you thought the response you gave would be adequate, and I find it harder to beleive how you thought that response would help town.
Tric has not actually been proven town until now, when he would have ended the game with Excalibur if he was scum.
Fair enough, I won't disagree with you there. That whole quote was just the things from day 3 that rubbed me the wrong way. It's a minor thing in the overall picture. I thought there was a lot of evidence for Trick's townyness that I later layed out so I eyed anyone who accused him of being mafia with suspicion (including Luckyowl). People who suspect confirmed town always become a little suspicious in retrospect.
The real bad stuff happens during this day though.
I make my big defense post which also comes with a case against Leafsnail. And all Nirur Torir does is quote an excerpt from it and say it's nothing, but WIFOM
I can't be bothered to read the entire wall, when what I do read is enough wine to get me drunk.
So you're admitting to not doing your best to help the town? During LYLO? Maybe you haven't realized this yet, but if you lynch the wrong guy we lose! Scum have a strong advantage here and will use every trick they can to make you lynch a townie! And you can't be even be bothered to fully read a post?! If I wasn't already convinced you were scum I'd be screaming at you in all caps!
The worst case scenario is that you overlook a good point being made by a townie and get him lynched. Another thing that happens is that it makes you look bad, which could get
you lynched and also cost the town a victory if you're town.
This kind of half-assed posting is a blatant scum tell, and do you know which scum you remind me of Nirur? You remind me of Jim.
If I ignored everything I haven't read since I went to bed last night would I actually miss anything?
Jim, tedious, pedantic, verbose discussion is pro town! Why are you against it?
Get bent. I'm happy you have the patience to trade walls of text with each other over and over and over again but I don't.
If you wrote a dense wall of text I completely ignored it.
Jim: I asked you a question too, on why you would rather hammer an end a productive D1 instead of lurking.
The answer to your question is TEDIUM.
Maybe I don't want to lurk and maybe I do want to stay engaged in the game (but fucking hell this game really strains my desire to do this). This leaves me two choices 1) just deal with the tedium, which I don't want to do, or 2) end the day early via hammers.
This is about the laziest, most groupthink lynch I think I've seen on this board.
I've only really read Vector's case on ToonyMan (couldn't be bothered to read anybody else's)
...
I hope you can see the resemblance.
You know what. Unvote. I'll be placing my vote on Leafsnail after all. NJW's only sin was excusing Leafsnail's actions, and possibly coordinating his watcher claim with him. He might still be scum, but regardless about how you feel about the alignments of either I or him, Leafsnail looks like scum in either scenario.
If I was scum and Leafsnail was town, my team and I would have quickhammered Leafsnail while Vector and Luckyowl were voting, and then I would have done my daykill tomorrow, securing my scum team a victory.
If I was scum and Leafsnail was also scum, you could interpret my day kill as a poorly thought out attempt to save my buddy's life.
If I am town and NJW is scum, then him and Leafsnail are a likely scum team who coordinated NJW's watcher claim. Plus it would explain the way he excused leafsnail's scummy behaviour.
If NJW and I are both town, then the only possible scum teams would be the following (since we're pretty sure Tric is town)
Fallacy, LuckyOwl, Nirur Torir
Fallacy, Nirur Torir, Leafsnail
Fallacy, Leafsnail, Luckyowl.
Luckyowl, Nirur Torir, Leafsnail
You're very flipfloppy, and defend pulling away from NJW with even more WIFOM.
But that isn't true. It's an actual case against Leafsnail that he chooses to ignore, and what do you know? Leafsnail pulls out a holdout pistol once the main argument for lynching me collapses and the Town starts to turn against him. How can you not see this as an attempt by !ScumNirur Torir to defend his buddy?
It is true. It is WIFOM. "If we were scum we would have done this" is almost always WIFOM, and there's no need to put it into an attack against Leafsnail of all people. I suppose it wasn't exactly flipfloppy away from NJW, however.
Leafsnail of all people....
Leafsnail of all people.Leafsnail is all but confirmed scum!He's been gunning for me since day 3 with absurd arguments, he was on many people's scumlists, and he was the second person to follow-up on Fallacy's fake Excalibur idea. Of course I'd be suspicious of him! And my argument against him was not pure WIFOM, which you would have realized if you actually payed attention to it. I'll admit, the first sentence where I said that I would quickhammer !townLeafsnail could be considered WIFOM, though the
only reason scum
wouldn't do it is because they couldn't coordinate a hammer properly. But believe it or not, "X person is scum because otherwise they would have already been quickhammered" is considered to be a valid argument to make during LYLO in mafia. Like any good argument, it can be debated, but it is generally discussed rather than dismissed unlike the "Too Towny Fallacy"
And I wrote more than one sentence as well. If you read beyond it, you would know that my argument against Leafsnail is mainly one based off of probability. There are several possible scum teams. If NJW is scum, than Leafsnail is scum due to behavioral tells. If NJW is not scum, then the only possible scum team where Leafsnail isn't scum includes LuckyOwl and Fallacy of Urist. Due to their own behaviour, it's highly unlikely that they're
both scum, so therefore Leafsnail is probably Scum.
It's not an ironclad case, but "probably scum" was good enough for what I needed this case to be. It was just something meant to kickstart a discussion, which people refused to participate in, though it's a lot stronger to me since I know that I'm town. And if you still want to call it shit, then tell me why Leafsnail gave up and all but confessed once Trickmagic started to pressure him? Trick was just one towny after all.
Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that I nabbed our town a Scum.
In my response to him, I call this out and then point out how the argument about me faking Excalibur is it's own WIFOM, which is another way of stating the first paragraph of my big defense.
@Fallacy and NJW
Every !scumcase that anyone has ever made against me hinges on the fact that I am attempting some brazen and blatant gambit. Every other possible scum suspect plays somewhat sensibly if they're scum, but for me to be scum, I have to do some really whacky shit! Also according to Fallacy, it means that I would need to have a very strange auto. If I had an auto like that which prevented me from killing, then my role would be pointless in the first place since I would be sacrificing the standard mafia-kill for a shitter mafia-kill that leaves an obvious calling card.
Lying about Excalibur would be another example of Wacky shit!
All my actions so far can easily explained by me being town and making a few mistakes, while to justify me being scum, you have to go through all of these strange hoops.
Or alternatively, having a kill which leaves an obvious calling card gets you something: Either a second night kill, one of which keeps getting blocked, some sort of power-up mechanic, or perhaps the chance of daykills which don't count as the daily mafia kill.
So now you're finally starting to make an argument for how I could be sole-night killer rather than putting the burden of proof on the wrong person. I wish you could have opened with that! So you're suggesting my kills operate on some sort of bounty system, like a CoD Killstreak reward?
Well, it's not impossible but I think I prefer Fallacy's take on the !scumme concept. His system is more elegant even if you're both wrong.
Regardless though, you have to explain why I used the fast-hatter badge to give Excalibur to Trick rather to than to guarantee another night-kill and secure victory for my team? Can you imagine if !scumme got us a nightkill and the Vector kill? Town would be screwed!
I'm not calling it a gambit. You're the one who keeps saying that it would have to be an insane gambit for you to be scum.
Leafsnail called my day 3 shenanigans a gambit, and Fallacy said I lied about Excalibur in the previous day just so I could lie about it giving it to Trick in this one.
Finally, if I were scum I wouldn't be the person doing the night-kill. One of my buddies would have done it instead and avoided this whole situation in the first place. Like you pointed out, I leave a very obvious calling card and thus every death can always be traced back to me. If all of my buddies were no-bonked, only then I would have to do the scumkill and pull this gambit. To rule out such a situation, we can look at the people who were no-bonked and try to evaluate their scumminess. If they are sufficiently scummy though, then they should be lynched before me since there's stronger evidence against them.
heydude6, this is completely backwards. If you're a mafia member pulling a gambit (and given that no other nightkills have happened this game I think that's a strong possibility) then you may have to be the one making the kill precisely because of your obvious calling card. If another member of your team did the kill and it didn't have the "HP loss" flavour and you still tried to claim it as your own everyone would think it's suspicious. In addition, the redirect story currently doesn't add up given that you claimed using a badge that would stop redirects.
So do you think I was just faking when I tried to use it yesterday?
Yes.
Fallacy's point was the main thing you were aruging for to be true in your attack against me. He may not have used the word gambit, but:
- Pretend to use a nonexistant item in the previous day
- Claim it was stolen from you and will be used against the town if they don't act quickly
- Use this urgency to Convince town to rush a hammer against NJW2000
is still a gambit.
You should already know this! I can't believe your arguments have degenerated to "He didn't use those exact words!"
And rather than acknowledge that the main argument against me is shit, or give reasons for why it isn't shit, he just says that he's applying pressure.
The argument that I’m faking Excalibur is a WIFOM, yet you eagerly believe it, while dismissing my own points as WIFOM.
If I eagerly believed it I'd be voting you, instead of just applying pressure.
We're in a LYLO situation where quickhammers are possible. Am I seriously supposed to believe you'd place a second vote on me without waiting for a town consensus? Even scum would try to pretend to be town in this situation. I think you would know that.
I had you voted for all of 23 minutes today, early on, based on you trying to pull weird stuff at the very end of yesterday, and it was the first vote against you. If you're defending yourself with this, then it's a meaningless attack on everyone who has placed even a single vote today.
It's a good thing you quoted me. It makes it easier for me to pinpoint the the exact moment where you misrepresent the meaning of my statement. First of all, we still had 8 people alive when you placed your first vote and you took it off before Vector died. It took 5 people to hammer back then, so there needed to be at least 2 townie votes. It was bad, but it wasn't game ending.
Second, when there's 2 votes on someone, it only takes 2 scum to quickhammer which is easier to coordinate than making 3 scum quickhammer (though it's likely one of 2 pre-existing votes was scum to begin with).
What I am attacking is your idea that !townyou would have placed a vote and risked a quickhammer without considering the feelings of the rest of the town.
As for your pressure, it looks quite similar to dogpiling to me. Even a scum who is trying to push a lynch on a towney can be said to apply pressure to them. I see this response as nothing more than a way to brush aside concerns that the argument you're supporting is flawed.
I was on you before that, and you don't seem to understand your scumminess well enough to defend yourself.
Indeed, this is what you were on me for previously.
Heydude6 what was so important about protecting your buddy's revive that you'd use lylo breakers for it?
What kind of contradictory nonsense is this? There is no way anyone would use a Lylo breaker to defend their buddy if they knew they were going to be revived!
They might if it changed lylo and the revive had a downside.
But you've been claimed town by a hopefully reliable cop, and one you think is town. Anything to say on that?
Late D3 you thought Leafsnail likely on multiple scum teams, what changed enough for you to be so sure on Vector, Owl, and myself?
And why me? My vote wasn't enough to get you in scum's hammer range?
And you might have kept your dignity if you continued on that line of questioning, but you instead decided to attack my case on Leafsnail that you admit to not even properly reading.
You know what. Unvote. I'll be placing my vote on Leafsnail after all. NJW's only sin was excusing Leafsnail's actions, and possibly coordinating his watcher claim with him. He might still be scum, but regardless about how you feel about the alignments of either I or him, Leafsnail looks like scum in either scenario.
If I was scum and Leafsnail was town, my team and I would have quickhammered Leafsnail while Vector and Luckyowl were voting, and then I would have done my daykill tomorrow, securing my scum team a victory.
If I was scum and Leafsnail was also scum, you could interpret my day kill as a poorly thought out attempt to save my buddy's life.
If I am town and NJW is scum, then him and Leafsnail are a likely scum team who coordinated NJW's watcher claim. Plus it would explain the way he excused leafsnail's scummy behaviour.
If NJW and I are both town, then the only possible scum teams would be the following (since we're pretty sure Tric is town)
Fallacy, LuckyOwl, Nirur Torir
Fallacy, Nirur Torir, Leafsnail
Fallacy, Leafsnail, Luckyowl.
Luckyowl, Nirur Torir, Leafsnail
You're very flipfloppy, and defend pulling away from NJW with even more WIFOM.
I'm sorry I didn't answer your original question, I was too preoccupied with responding to Fallacy's Fake Excalibur accusation, and I eventually forgot about it. I'll answer it now though.
Heydude6 what was so important about protecting your buddy's revive that you'd use lylo breakers for it?
What kind of contradictory nonsense is this? There is no way anyone would use a Lylo breaker to defend their buddy if they knew they were going to be revived!
They might if it changed lylo and the revive had a downside.
But you've been claimed town by a hopefully reliable cop, and one you think is town. Anything to say on that?
Late D3 you thought Leafsnail likely on multiple scum teams, what changed enough for you to be so sure on Vector, Owl, and myself?
And why me? My vote wasn't enough to get you in scum's hammer range?
I saw you as scummy since day 2, for the reasons outlined in the megapost I made during day 3. I also saw Leafsnail as scummy for the arguments he put against me. What changed was the fact that I had to do research to make my defense when I stumbled on some posts of Vector that I found suspicious. Those plus their silly choice to support LuckyOwl's plan made Vector my number one scum suspect, but there was a lot of evidence that Vector and Leafsnail weren't on the same scum team. Since I saw Vector as scummier than Leafsnail, they were my number one target and once they flipped as town, Leafsnail became my number one once again. LuckyOwl only made sense as scum if they were a buddy of Vetor.
As for the LuckyOwl cop confirming my alignment, I didnt think much of it at the time. I thought he may have just been buttering me up to stop me from doing what needed to be done to stop an Excalibur quickhammer. Now, I think he's town for the reasons I outlined in my read's list.
Well, that was exhausting. It made me think of this:
Another reason why the group of 2 is more trustworthy is that in LYLO, it's unlikely for a townie to back-up a genuinely good point someone makes since there are so few town left to do so (and scum often tries to kill the most capable ones first). If you're lucky, you might get somebody saying "I agree", but it's very rare for you to see somone build on your argument. Scum have a much easier time supporting eachother's arguments.
Anway, I was too busy responding to Nirur's post to write something about Fallacy, but I think this was still useful to everyone.
Author
Topic: BYOR 15: Game Over - Mafia Win (Kinda?) (Read 114038 times)