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[NJW2000]

Happy to massclaim myself - PPE: we're past that idea, apparently.

Well, OK, Reads List. This should answer your weak "Who's scummiest" question, FoU. Also, perhaps somebody other than Toaster performed the daykill - we'll need more than one No Bonk badges to start getting information or use out of them, I suspect.

I wouldn't be astonished if this daykill came from a Dweller Mask gun, which doesn't make Vector look great. Not necessarily the case though, that's just random speculation.

Would also like to note that if Toaster was redirected, a "Misdeliver" action on the part of Nirur Torir would be prime candidate for that.


Heydude:

The claims chart is the strongest piece of evidence that Toaster might still be town. NJW confirmed his presence at Vector, and Toaster claims to have used a protect. We could doubt that protect claim, but we definitely know that he didn't do the scum kill cause Vector would otherwise be dead. It's strange that he inspected Iceytea and visited Vector at the same time, though having 2 night actions is not the craziest thing in this setup. Maybe his action against Vector was also an inspect and the mafia targeted the masons.

This is based on false mechanical information: Toaster could have used a scumkill on Vector. I know Vector was protected, it need not have been Toaster, take this on trust. Small point but may be necessary.


Nirur Torir: How the hell was an ability swap meant to work as an investigative ability NIGHT ONE? Also, why were you the last to claim a night action?


Also like to note that the stuff about "Hydraform" still seems not to be sorted out, to me.

Spoiler: exhausting late-night readslist finally done (click to show/hide)

NJW2000 - Confirmed Town (well, duh)
IcyTea31 - Dead Town

heydude6 - Reasonably Town, there's the thing about Toonyman's weird power which he came well out of, his admitting the vigilante status + action, etc. Helpful and involved.

TricMagic - Homicidal Town. Could have imagined a 3rd party Tric, but can't see either town!Jim or scum!Jim publically investigating 3rdparty!Tric and reporting them as town. Also, Tric has been giving us a great deal of information, publically buying badges, explaining his role, etc. Would be
some pretty mad stuff for him to be scum at this point.


notquitethere - suspicious town Being helpful today, but the weirdness with the voting is hard to forget - it looked more like 3rd party mentality in some ways. Then again, intervening for Toony looks quite towny in retrospect - there was no reason for not-town!NQT to do that that I could see. Unless it's a gambit to let us take a MyLo breaker into the late game...

FallacyofUrist - 3rd party /Town . Lots of nice activity. Good case on Toaster, after he doomed himself, which is  Good but easy case on Jim - basically boils down to "Jim is unhelpful and lazy" - nobody's denying it. Similar one on Leafsnail at some point. D1 stuff generally seems fairly sound, although the fries nonsense and bad rvs is annoying. Nothing I wouldn't expect from a 3rd party - lots of helpful-looking activity, claims his N1 action early D1, no inspired cases or attacks, nothing hugely scummy.


Leafsnail - Weakly approve, want to see more activity. Admittedly very little content, but I'm not picking up the scummy vibes everyone else is - their posts have been logical and advance discussion to some extent, and some people are busy over Christmas. Their passivity about the contract stuff is a little worrying - they don't seem madly keen to share info with town, but their reasoning for it seems sounds. Some things remain to be seen. Would I lynch them for lurking? Yes, if they continue to engage minimally, but only as a last resort.

Luckyowl - No fucking clue if I'm honest. Good that he refrained from hammering - scum!Luckyowl could probably have gotten away with it. Sorry, but I'm finding getting a read on this guy is like trying to use a live fish as a notepad.



dolores - Unsure. A little oddly ready to townread people, that may just be their meta. Is advancing town by posting, engaging properly, etc. Still nervous about them when I remember their ability.




Vector - Null. Has been participating and apparently helping town, but nothing scum!Vector wouldn't necessarily do. A little suspect due to the strange explosion over the Toony lynch yesterday. Also, claimed the dweller mask, and there was just a daykill... hm, I guess scum wouldn't claim that then use a daykill. Huh, need to think that one through.


Jim Groovester - Null, leaning scum. Fairly shallow engagement, has posted a fair bit without doing much for Town, flip-flopped a bit on the Masons thing - gutreads it as false but acknowledges that he can't imagine a realistic case in which it was, then goes with Toaster's decision to lynch 4mask. Generally seems a bit defensive. Publically scanning Tric wasn't a bad action though - there's just no reason for scum not to do it, they have four people, so plenty of night actions.


Nirur Torir - Leaning scum: reasonable amount of play, but using the exchange thing on Juicebox strikes me as odd... especially as he's trying to use it as an investigate ability N1 when it disrupts the night actions it could be checked against. If X ability was used scummily N1, and Nirur got the ability from Juicebox N2, then he could have learned something useful to claim. Using it N1... wasn't going to tell him anything. Asked easy questions D1. Also, last to claim.


Toaster - Scum. He doesn't think his supposed inspect was redirected? Well, ok then. He's mafia, unless this game is utter mafia-sided bastard nonsense. A possibility I'm not so much ruling out as refusing to think about.

[Nirur Torir]

Nirur Torir: How the hell was an ability swap meant to work as an investigative ability NIGHT ONE? Also, why were you the last to claim a night action?

I was thinking more about figuring out their role than their alignment.
I didn't have the energy to defend myself from the attacks against me I was sure the last two RL days were full of, and was dreading/procrastinating on reading through it.

[Toaster]

Looks like there's no way I can convince y'all otherwise, so here comes the claim.

I am the Youtube Comment Section.  I am the source of the Leave Comment action.

I have several abilities.  First, I give everyone the Leave Comment action, as you've all seen.  Second, I see every submission of Leave Comment- but not the result.

My primary ability is the role cop ability I already claimed; I force the target at night to reveal one role name and one ability to me.

I have a three shot modifier to that to also get the alignment of the target.  I've used this one, obviously.

I can also (as a free action the first time per night) remove Leave Comment from somebody. 

My final action is a Day action.  If someone, as a result of Leave Comment, sends me something I've already seen, I can make votes against that person count double.


Everything I've done of interest I've claimed; I used the rolecop on IcyTea with the modifier to pick up his alignment.  I saw the ability that makes him a mason and the rolename that makes him the second hydra head (specifically stating that 4mask was the hydra.)  I didn't remove Leave Comment for anyone.


Finally, I had the Ice Hat, which I used on Vector.  I say had, because I just gave it away.  Since someone's stealing hats, I'm not saying to whom I gave it; they can claim it if they want to do so.  It specifically protects against kills and guns, which means guns are an item class that doesn't necessarily kill.


Oh, yeah; Tric's telling the truth about using Leave Comment last night.  He indeed targeted the role name Legendary Exterminator.  I have no idea if he hit anything, or what happened based off it, but he mentioned accuracy and staying alive, specifically.  He can vouch that he sent that, hopefully.  No one else used it.





If I hang, so be it.  Heydude, please shoot IcyTea in the night when I flip town if he doesn't die.  Or 4mask if he comes back to life.  I don't actually know; I haven't seen any hint of any lover-style abilities so I can't confirm or deny their deaths.  Icy knows I'm not Mafia, so take anything he says with a entire truck load of salt.


LuckyOwl is probably town, since he slipped out their Hydra ability before they had claimed mason.  Fallacy's wrong about me, but his arguments feel genuine.  Nirur probably needs more looks.  Leafsnail's still not participating enough to give me a read.  Jim I don't know; he could be either way.  His claim on Tric says nothing about his own alignment.  Icy's claim of town on NQT and Vector is all noise and no signal; don't drink that wine.




Did I miss anything?

[Toaster]

Also notice that whole HEAD flavor in 4mask's flip, almost like HEADS are an important part of HYDRA BASED FLAVOR.

[Leafsnail]

Everything I've done of interest I've claimed; I used the rolecop on IcyTea with the modifier to pick up his alignment.  I saw the ability that makes him a mason and the rolename that makes him the second hydra head (specifically stating that 4mask was the hydra.)  I didn't remove Leave Comment for anyone.

What alignment did you get from this inspection?

[Vector]

I wouldn't be astonished if this daykill came from a Dweller Mask gun, which doesn't make Vector look great. Not necessarily the case though, that's just random speculation.

Dweller mask can only be used at night. Last night I was blocked. I do not have any Mask-generated items.

[Toaster]

Leafsnail:

Everything I've done of interest I've claimed; I used the rolecop on IcyTea with the modifier to pick up his alignment.  I saw the ability that makes him a mason and the rolename that makes him the second hydra head (specifically stating that 4mask was the hydra.)  I didn't remove Leave Comment for anyone.

What alignment did you get from this inspection?

I had a limited inspect I thought would be great to use on one of them as a two-for-one deal.  I got a nice big red mafia result.  I'm 100% not going to sit on that kind of result.

Mafia, like I said.

[Toaster]

I mean, it's pretty simple.  Look at what is missing; anything referencing the IcyTea-4mask connection in 4mask's "flip."  Do you really find it plausible that all of that information is in IcyTea's role?  Look at how Icy stumbled over the Hydraform reveal from LuckyOwl.    Look at how both of them ignored my claim after I first posted it.  Also, note this from IcyTea:

Toaster

Open-and-shut fake inspect. He clearly performed an ability-inspect on me and happened upon the one that would mean a double-mislynch.

Emphasis mine: this is a misdirect, because he KNEW that he had been ability-copped, he CHOSE which ability to reveal, and yet he claims that I "happened upon it."   His stories don't add up because they are lies, plain and simple.


If you have to see me flip town to believe it, fine.  Just do so when it happens.

[Luckyowl]

  Look at how Icy stumbled over the Hydraform reveal from LuckyOwl.   

Yeah, I felt that at the time. I mean IcyTea31 always came off to me as a calm and collective individual. So when he got all paranoid and thought there was an imposter pretending to be him. I was honestly shock and confuse. I feel like a town would've responded to my claim on them with either silence so the mafia don't get a confirmation or a rejection to my claim on them. IcyTea31 saying all these nonsense words about secret chat(a sort of slip since later that day he claim to have a secret chat with 4mask.) And imposters is honestly where my blind trust began to dissolve.

[Vector]

IcyTea.

I'm not playing my best right now, at all, but there's something that sits poorly with me that I want to address: namely that when 4mask flipped, their role didn't actually contain any information about being masons, hydra head #2, etc. To me, this implies that 4mask was not originally part of this hydra thing, or something like that; that the chat was created as part of a targeted action. I wonder whether the purpose of drawing so much attention to themself on ICT's part at the beginning of D1 was to look for a good candidate to target with that ability. [Oops, ninja'ed by Toaster]

Note also the benefit to ICT of having us believe that ICT will die automatically if 4mask is killed (another phase in which to do things). And note how ICT has been leading the lynch case on Toaster, and how ICT had a large case against Toony that Dolores rapidly jumped on. I don't feel ICT's case had particular merit at that time (it was a lot of WoTing about a point that I still don't understand, to implicate Toony as scum). Now ICT is going to be the front of lynching our second claimed cop, without anyone claiming the redirect? This is fishy. Personally, I haven't seen a single clear scum read on Toaster so far this game.

Something else to pay attention to: No one has claimed a redirect on Toaster. That means that if Toaster isn't lying and ICT isn't scum, the redirect would presumably be given by the scumteam.

------> If we lynch Toaster and Toaster is town, and ICT auto-dies and flips town, scum plays in LYLO by accusing a town player with an unverifiable night action of the redirect.


I'd like to add the following. I know, factually speaking, that I am town. I also know that a number of people have been getting null/mild scum reads on me, which from my perspective, is pretty typical of my experience as a player. "Neutral" is basically where I end up every game; around D2 or D3 I usually spend a bunch of time defending myself. The two people that ICT supposedly cleared were me and NQT. We're both pretty strong players for town, but knowing my own meta, I usually don't get NKed because my alignment is typically in dispute. So.

Let's also consider the following. If Toaster ISN'T scum AND wasn't redirected, and ICT is scum, the two people who end up under "automatic" suspicion when ICT flips are myself and NQT. Conveniently, NQT was one of the big lynch candidates yesterday; and conveniently, I'm an adequately strong player (or at least have played a lot of games) who usually comes off slightly scummy.



Finally, I still strongly suspect that Nirur Torir is scum. The bandwagon position and late claim are both fishy.

[Luckyowl]

IcyTea31 might as well vote the one who seems the most suspicious to me than jump a bandwagon on Toaster.

Also Nirur Torir you're my second pick. My SM for some reason didn't tell me what 'hydraform' is for some reason. But I actually got information on your 'misdelivery'. You target a random player in addition to your intended target.

[webadict]

NOTE: Hey guys. I just wanted to start off with thank you guys for playing this game. I always forget how much work this is, but I really do enjoy doing it (but this is probably my last BYOR, holy crap does this eat my time. I made a mistake making it this complicated!) See, I do not expect we'll be getting replacements, so it's very likely that we will need to modkill both dolores (For, shall we say, contentious reasons) and Jim Groovester (Unless we can find a replacement.) However, this may lead to an imbalance in the game (which already teeters on broken all the time anyway), but I also feel like this is overall healthy for the game if they aren't impacting the game, so that non-players do not slow you down! So, if you would like to do me a favor and let me know if that is acceptable, or how you feel about this decision--preferably discretely, since y'all are playing Mafia--I'd greatly appreciate it.

As I see it, these are our options:
A. Modkill dolores and Jim Groovester and let the game play out.
B. Modkill dolores and Jim Groovester and shift the balance a bit in response.
C. Modkill dolores and attempt to find a replacement for Jim Groovester and let the game play out.
D. Modkill dolores and attempt to find a replacement for Jim Groovester and balance the game a bit in response.
E. Some other option.

I'd love to explain what each of these would entail, but I'm afraid that that would involve revealing extra information.

Again, thank you guys for playing. You do make this game fun! Also, sorry for being busy recently. I wasn't doing anything in particular, but I was trying to mull over what to do about the situation, but since it ultimately affects all of you playing, I think it's worth discussing with you guys.

Vote Count
------------------------
dolores - 0 -
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
heydude6 - 0 -
IcyTea31 - 3 - Luckyowl*, Vector*, Toaster*,
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Leafsnail - 0 -
Luckyowl - 0 -
Nirur Torir - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
notquitethere - 0 -
Toaster - 3 - Leafsnail*, notquitethere*, FallacyofUrist*,
TricMagic - 0 -
Vector - 1 - TricMagic*,
No Lynch - 0 -

Not Voting - 6 - Nirur Torir, dolores, NJW2000, IcyTea31, Jim Groovester, heydude6*,

7 to Hammer. Day ends on January 03, 2021 at 19:00 CST (~43 hours remaining).

[IcyTea31]

IcyTea: As I understand it, you're dead tonight. Fancy claiming?

Let's see how big this quote pyramid has to grow until people believe, if not the claim itself, that I've claimed at all.

Why hasn't ICT already claimed? If he's going to die tonight he should surely share all the knowledge he has.

Because you're not reading the thread?

IcyTea and I, collectively, are a Super-JOAT.

That's the part with the hydra

Also like to note that the stuff about "Hydraform" still seems not to be sorted out, to me.

No ability by that name. I have two abilities under different names that make me like a hydra, but apparently Luckyowl didn't use an actual role-inspect:

LuckyOwl:  What can you tell us about this Hydraform?

Not much really. Webadict attached this weird flavor text saying something like. "Woah IcyTea31 has how many heads?"

Everything I've done of interest I've claimed; I used the rolecop on IcyTea with the modifier to pick up his alignment.  I saw the ability that makes him a mason and the rolename that makes him the second hydra head (specifically stating that 4mask was the hydra.)

I mean, it's pretty simple.  Look at what is missing; anything referencing the IcyTea-4mask connection in 4mask's "flip."  Do you really find it plausible that all of that information is in IcyTea's role?

You seem to be in a superposition of believing the description of the ability I showed, and not believing it. Quantum bad faith?

I'm not playing my best right now, at all, but there's something that sits poorly with me that I want to address: namely that when 4mask flipped, their role didn't actually contain any information about being masons, hydra head #2, etc. To me, this implies that 4mask was not originally part of this hydra thing, or something like that; that the chat was created as part of a targeted action.

In a way, yes. The ability was an auto that triggered at the start of game, specifically targeting 4maskwolf  (whom I had named in the role name pre-game).

I don't feel ICT's case had particular merit at that time (it was a lot of WoTing about a point that I still don't understand, to implicate Toony as scum).

I'm starting to get frustrated about people not reading my posts.

Now ICT is going to be the front of lynching our second claimed cop, without anyone claiming the redirect? This is fishy. Personally, I haven't seen a single clear scum read on Toaster so far this game.

Something else to pay attention to: No one has claimed a redirect on Toaster. That means that if Toaster isn't lying and ICT isn't scum, the redirect would presumably be given by the scumteam.

If we lynch Toaster and Toaster is town, and ICT auto-dies and flips town, scum plays in LYLO by accusing a town player with an unverifiable night action of the redirect.

Why are you talking about a redirect in a situation where even I can confirm the role-inspect correctly picked up part of my role? If scum shenanigans happened and Toaster is somehow, somehow town, it was a framer action, not a redirect.

Let's also consider the following. If Toaster ISN'T scum AND wasn't redirected, and ICT is scum, the two people who end up under "automatic" suspicion when ICT flips are myself and NQT. Conveniently, NQT was one of the big lynch candidates yesterday; and conveniently, I'm an adequately strong player (or at least have played a lot of games) who usually comes off slightly scummy.

The exact reason we picked you and NQT to inspect was that your alignments were uncertain to us (and the watch on you because I supposed that if town, you had drawn a lot of scum attention).

[notquitethere]

Nirur your claim doesn't make sense to me. If you ability swapped it would have triggered before Juice's death. Death happens last in action processing and doesn't typically block actions. Looks like you slipped up.

[FallacyofUrist]

I think I have one big, important question for Toaster.

Why are you so absolutely, incredibly certain that IcyTea31 is mafia? I feel like something is driving your case more than just your cop results. It borders on the absurd, because while pursuing your case, it doesn't look like you've stopped to consider literally any other possibility. Do you have some sort of 'your results are always true' auto or something like that? Or some points of IcyTea's behavior that you haven't pointed out yet?

I honestly can't fathom why people are starting to go along with Toaster's IcyTea case here, too. According to IcyTea's own claim, their death is impending. We can still feasibly lynch someone else (time for me to build a case on notquitethere, then investigate Leafsnail's new content and Torir's total content), then see if IcyTea is still alive Day 3, and lynch them if they are.

Note also the benefit to ICT of having us believe that ICT will die automatically if 4mask is killed (another phase in which to do things). And note how ICT has been leading the lynch case on Toaster, and how ICT had a large case against Toony that Dolores rapidly jumped on. I don't feel ICT's case had particular merit at that time (it was a lot of WoTing about a point that I still don't understand, to implicate Toony as scum). Now ICT is going to be the front of lynching our second claimed cop, without anyone claiming the redirect? This is fishy. Personally, I haven't seen a single clear scum read on Toaster so far this game.

I see Toaster as clear scum at the moment, and probably more importantly, IcyTea isn't even voting Toaster.

Nirur your claim doesn't make sense to me. If you ability swapped it would have triggered before Juice's death. Death happens last in action processing and doesn't typically block actions. Looks like you slipped up.

You know, you make a very good point here.

Nirur Torir, what's up with this?