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[FallacyofUrist]

FallacyofUrist why is your vote still on ICT? Haven't you read the recent revelations?

That's a valid point. There's been some reasonable arguments made in their defense, so I'll unvote for now. It's more that I don't yet want to vote ToonyMan yet because that brings him within hammer range, and he's mentioned some more stuff he wants to bring up, so...

A ToonyMan lynch is dumb.

This is about the laziest, most groupthink lynch I think I've seen on this board.

I've only really read Vector's case on ToonyMan (couldn't be bothered to read anybody else's) and it's punishing ToonyMan for making himself available for people to pick at. ToonyMan is 115% correct that he should've done a disappearing act like TricMagic instead of what he did do, which was do well-intentioned town play. Did he play perfectly? Doubtful. Did he try? Yes.

You say it's the 'laziest, most groupthink lynch I think I've ever seen on this board', and then you say you only read Vector's case? Jim Groovester.

[Jim Groovester]

Oh, I don't mind people not reading parts of the thread, there's fifty pages and its Christmas. I was just wondering how you knew.

I have been keeping up with the thread and I don't find many of the points made against him convincing or all that strongly indicative of a scum alignment when viewed in balance with the rest of his behavior. If I could actually get through some of the denser cases (and if I could be bothered) I might try to argue point by point.

ToonyMan, at least as he appears to me, is making one of the better efforts this game.

You say it's the 'laziest, most groupthink lynch I think I've ever seen on this board', and then you say you only read Vector's case? Jim Groovester.

If only it was true that I had to put in the same amount of effort as the target of my criticism.

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf - 0 -
dolores - 0 -
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
heydude6 - 0 -
IcyTea31 - 1 - Luckyowl*,
Jim Groovester - 1 - FallacyofUrist*,
juicebox - 0 -
Leafsnail - 3 - notquitethere*, ToonyMan*, juicebox*,
Luckyowl - 0 -
Nirur Torir - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
notquitethere - 0 -
Toaster - 0 -
ToonyMan - 7 - 4maskwolf*, Nirur Torir*, TricMagic*, dolores*, NJW2000*, IcyTea31*, Vector*,
TricMagic - 3 - Leafsnail*, Jim Groovester*, Toaster*,
Vector - 0 -
No Lynch -

Not Voting - heydude6*,

9 to Hammer. Day ends on December 29, 2020 at 19:00 CST (4 hours and 25 minutes remaining.)

[notquitethere]

Everyone

Take a look at the lurkertracker. Leafsnail has the lowest number of posts in the game, less than a 3rd of the engagement of Toony, but more than that they made a grand total of One case and then sat on it for the whole day. Who does this? Scum do this. This is basic scum play: lay low, don't make waves, don't attack too many people. Ask yourselves, why is Tric (clearly not on a team with anyone) or Toony (actively engaged in the thread) a better target for today?

[notquitethere]

Like, heydude, 4mask, ICT, you're good town candidates. Tell me why I should be on the Toony wagon instead of Leafsnail who is playing classic mafia play?

[FallacyofUrist]

I have been keeping up with the thread and I don't find many of the points made against him convincing or all that strongly indicative of a scum alignment when viewed in balance with the rest of his behavior. If I could actually get through some of the denser cases (and if I could be bothered) I might try to argue point by point.

ToonyMan, at least as he appears to me, is making one of the better efforts this game.

If only it was true that I had to put in the same amount of effort as the target of my criticism.

See, this garbage is why I'm voting you. You say you don't find many of the points made against him convincing, without naming what those points are. You say when viewed in balance with the rest of his behavior, and you don't point out what that behavior is. You say he's making one of the better efforts this game, without citations.

You say it's a lazy, groupthink lynch, and then you say you only read one of the cases against him? It's not that it's hypocritical (which it is), but that you have no grounds to say that without doing a more broader analysis!

Take a look at the lurkertracker. Leafsnail has the lowest number of posts in the game, less than a 3rd of the engagement of Toony, but more than that they made a grand total of One case and then sat on it for the whole day. Who does this? Scum do this. This is basic scum play: lay low, don't make waves, don't attack too many people. Ask yourselves, why is Tric (clearly not on a team with anyone) or Toony (actively engaged in the thread) a better target for today?

Unfortunately we can't really use those 'basic scum play' analysis principles at least this Day, because you know. Christmas. Holidays. Under different circumstances, I'd be in the middle of a family holiday trip right now, and in all likelihood my activity levels would be around Leafsnail's. Meta reasons and all that.

[TricMagic]

IcyTea:

Roles might not be alignment-indicative, but I'll say the role name is a really damning one.

That bit I underlined: you really think a role name a player submitted before the game started is going to have any influence on their alignment?

This was a breadcrumb to tell that I knew what was in the contract before its real text was posted, because the name in question literally is damning. If you read the whole sentence, you'd know I don't. Is looking for "slips" all you do on D1?

In fact, if you care who I suspect and where my vote is so much, let's put it on you: Toaster. If you're not going to develop your cases to ascertain their truths and don't even care about figuring out factual matters, I don't see how your mindset is in anyway town-sided.

No, but I'm not going to look a gift slip in the mouth.

Way better than seeing it unused, actually.  And matters are developing; it's not just you I have my eyes on.


TricMagic:

As a note, people can give hats to others using an action, even in the day. So giving them to me makes more sense than hoarding them. Though I kinda expect you will get lynched Icytea. I expected a faster response.

Boy howdy are you sure expecting people to trust you as solid gold.

Either way, I have a perfectly good reason to lynch Icytea no matter my alignment. There is a 2/3 chance of getting a good hat out of it. The --- is more random to me and useful in the hands of the Mafia.

Especially since you don't have the town's interests at heart.  You stink of third party.



Heydude:

It was quite a powerful ability. If it weren't for the "Leave a Comment" loophole, they would have crippled me and thus the town's first night at the very least. Whoever used this ability was pretty damn confident that it wouldn't be wasted and hurt their own team. That kind of confidence would only come from someone who is scum.

Okay.  I wanted to be 100% sure on the timing so it wouldn't move around later.



Fallacy:  Do you think running around threatening people with your big scary fries got you positive results?





I was going to go back and get a feel on who was just coasting, but it turns out the list of people who are just coasting is pretty long; too long for it to be useful D1.   I'm pretty confident that TricMagic isn't town; he's way too self-interested for it to be the case that he's town, and I don't care for his current vote on LuckyOwl; he quickly jumps from not having LuckyOwl on his scumreads to voting LuckyOwl for a claim of inconsistent logic, which I don't follow at all.


TricMagic.

Vote Count
------------------------
 
TricMagic - Leafsnail*, ToonyMan*, Vector*, Jim Groovester*, Toaster*,


9 to Hammer. Day ends on December 29, 2020 at 19:00 CST (~50 hours from now).

Eh, can at least die knowing that list of people are the most sus to ever be suspected.

And yeah, me being town is a laugh isn't it heydude. At least my death would give information on flip. Some of these have to be scum I feel.

My idea of people on this list being scum is still true today. Particularly that whole toaster vote. Am I not allowed to pressure someone for being inconsistent if they're not on my scum list Toaster? Honestly looking back at the linked scum read post, luckyowl jumped on juicebox a bit quickly when they asked about trusting NT and TM. Leafsnail has mostly been under the radar for me most of this game, making clean informative posts. But the other names on that list have my suspicions. Might not mean much since I dropped off, but if I die tonight I'll have posted this.

kicks feet about. That's my thoughts on this matter Not having my hat is annoying, but eh.


6 replies huh.

[4maskwolf]

Everyone

Take a look at the lurkertracker. Leafsnail has the lowest number of posts in the game, less than a 3rd of the engagement of Toony, but more than that they made a grand total of One case and then sat on it for the whole day. Who does this? Scum do this. This is basic scum play: lay low, don't make waves, don't attack too many people. Ask yourselves, why is Tric (clearly not on a team with anyone) or Toony (actively engaged in the thread) a better target for today?

It’s also how town Leafsnail plays in the games I read through of him. He’s far less active nowadays than he used to be, so while he used to make one case and tunnel it into the ground now he makes one case and lurks the whole day away. I agree that he’s a valid lynch target and from a general perspective e I wouldn’t mind seeing the lurker go, but I’m not convinced he’s any more likely to be scum than average.

Like, heydude, 4mask, ICT, you're good town candidates. Tell me why I should be on the Toony wagon instead of Leafsnail who is playing classic mafia play?

At work, will return to this before day end.

[notquitethere]

Fallacy, I get that, my own activity has been sub par for exactly these reasons. But "informative" isn't the same thing as "town". He's been writing a bit of commentary but not actually pushing anyone: sticking on one case the entire game and posting occasionally after that initial case. The shoe fits.

[IcyTea31]

Like, heydude, 4mask, ICT, you're good town candidates. Tell me why I should be on the Toony wagon instead of Leafsnail who is playing classic mafia play?

Because ToonyMan has performed several other classic mafia plays like "scumhunting" while displaying no true interest in the target's alignment (by dismissing the case before getting anything resembling a useful read) and rolefishing (by asking questions about abilities which only make sense if their purpose is to collect more information about them, as the information directly asked for is already known).

Furthermore, a lurker like Leafsnail, while lynchably scummy, produces next to no information upon lynch, exactly due to the lurking. An active mafioso has many more posts to analyze come D2, giving them greater priority.

[FallacyofUrist]

I guess it comes down to mafia theory, then. Is it better to lynch the passive scummy player or the active scummy player? (Or the passively active scummy player?)

I'm willing to vote him as a pressure vote to encourage some additional activity, but Jim clearly has the time to post, he's just not making anything substantial, which is scummier in my book. And I only have one vote (as far as you know~) so better to put it on the scummier target.

Furthermore, a lurker like Leafsnail, while lynchably scummy, produces next to no information upon lynch, exactly due to the lurking. An active mafioso has many more posts to analyze come D2, giving them greater priority.

Oh yeah, this point too. Forgot about the 'provides less information' point, but this is totally true as well.

[Jim Groovester]

I have been keeping up with the thread and I don't find many of the points made against him convincing or all that strongly indicative of a scum alignment when viewed in balance with the rest of his behavior. If I could actually get through some of the denser cases (and if I could be bothered) I might try to argue point by point.

ToonyMan, at least as he appears to me, is making one of the better efforts this game.

If only it was true that I had to put in the same amount of effort as the target of my criticism.

See, this garbage is why I'm voting you. You say you don't find many of the points made against him convincing, without naming what those points are. You say when viewed in balance with the rest of his behavior, and you don't point out what that behavior is. You say he's making one of the better efforts this game, without citations.

You say it's a lazy, groupthink lynch, and then you say you only read one of the cases against him? It's not that it's hypocritical (which it is), but that you have no grounds to say that without doing a more broader analysis!

If you're telling me I can't have an opinion without effort, you are incorrect.

[ToonyMan]

Like, heydude, 4mask, ICT, you're good town candidates. Tell me why I should be on the Toony wagon instead of Leafsnail who is playing classic mafia play?

Because ToonyMan has performed several other classic mafia plays like "scumhunting" while displaying no true interest in the target's alignment (by dismissing the case before getting anything resembling a useful read) and rolefishing (by asking questions about abilities which only make sense if their purpose is to collect more information about them, as the information directly asked for is already known).

Furthermore, a lurker like Leafsnail, while lynchably scummy, produces next to no information upon lynch, exactly due to the lurking. An active mafioso has many more posts to analyze come D2, giving them greater priority.

So I should be lynched because I'm playing and Leafsnail isn't? You're encouraging every player to never post by saying this.

[FallacyofUrist]

If you're telling me I can't have an opinion without effort, you are incorrect.

You can absolutely have an opinion. Doesn't make it a valid one or a towny one.

[notquitethere]

The idea that lynching active players over less active players is just bogus. We get information on a flip no matter the activity level: we see who voted for the person and why and who was saved because of it.

I didn't like Toony and Vector's 3rd party case on Tric, but they weren't the most egregious arguments in the thread.