Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ToonyMan]

@Vector:

As you all know, Toony hasn't been posting that much or that involved. Then he posts a big 'ol wall of text. Part of that wall is of particular interest to me.

I think I've been posting plenty. Every real-life day since the day started I've done at least one big post and one small post. I don't like typing huge paragraphs but I would consider my participation "involved".

1. There is not a lot of evidence mentioned in relationship to this list. For example, I honestly can't recall anything I ever said that could be remotely construed as "buddying." The "seems calculated part," sure, I calculate. Point is: not a lot of evidence mentioned for the first player Toony is claiming to have scummy behavior. You can examine the rest of the list yourself.

1. You voted TricMagic immediately after I did, for the same reasons.
2. You didn't pressure me at the start of the day at all, until I pointed it out. Your response after.

2. Having assembled a lot of these lists as scum in my day, one of the key things you want to do is characterize people broadly as scummy without pointing to specific actions and posts. This covers your butt on later days ("I'm suspicious of everyone, that's why I don't have cases! Sure, let's join another bandwagon", or alternatively "funny how my suspects keep flipping town, how annoying, but you must recall that so-and-so did something scummy a long time ago as I mentioned"). It also helps you keep out of the spotlight by not saying too much. People can't use your lists to figure out who your buddies are because you say that everyone is suspicious.

Why is suspecting most players on Day 1 a scum tell?

3. Check the proposed scumteams vs. who has a "scum lean" in Toony's list. The claim is that NQT, 4mask, and juicebox have a scum lean and that ICT is lying a lot. Of these four, only one made the list of proposed scumteams. He also manages to suggest that 7 out of 16 players are his candidates for being on the teams he mentions. In the process, he points the finger at every veteran player other than himself.

1. Scum lean for anybody I thought was null, but also not posting much.
2. IcyTea was lying! He's in a faction with 4maskwolf, my feelings were exactly on point.
3. Maybe I suspect veteran players more because they should know better?

-> Making a meta point: Please recall what Toonyman is famous for, the Toony Tunnel. Note that "calling everyone scum" is quite literally the opposite of that.

You're embarrassing me. If you're going to meta scum tell me, then at least realize I haven't wanted to associate with "Toony Tunnel" since like 2011. Look at my play in games around like 2012-2015, I think those hold up best to how I want to play mafia.

4. Along those lines, check who Toony has been interacting with and voting vs. who has a "scum lean" in Toony's list. He's been allowing a hell of a lot to slide.

You only decided to go "fuck it' after Jim pushed you into action. How do you feel about Leafsnail as well then?

5. We've all claimed that it would be better to lynch scum than a third party D1 if we can do it. Toony apparently has a strong belief that ICT and Leafsnail are scum. Jim and FallacyofUrist make up the other two pieces of, in his point of view, an "obvious" scumteam. There is, frankly, enough evidence to hang FoU ten times over if Toony were actually motivated to do anything about the "obvious scum." ICT was the main focus of discussion for a long time. Why is he still voting Tric?

Because at best TricMagic isn't helping town and is third-party. I think you and Leafsnail would be my next votes if Tric was off the table.


@Luckyowl:
I don't think your case on IcyTea and FallacyofUrist makes sense. 4mask and IcyTea are confirming each other as "masons". Yes, all three could be mafia, but all we'd have to do is lynch one (preferably IcyTea here I think) and it'll either damn 4mask as mafia or confirm 4mask as pro-town.


@Leafsnail, TricMagic:
Have any insight on this?


PPE:

@IcyTea:

I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.

This way, I could both make the claim early enough for it to matter, and to use it as a sneaky safety net for a gambit. What advantage would the town have got if we claimed earlier that we didn't get by claiming now?

The reason why I think claiming at the start of the day is better, if you're going to claim at all, is because having two nearly confirmed townies to work with for the whole day is pretty good. You'd be able to make pretty convincing scumhunting arguments that people would have a hard time dismissing as scum lies. If one of you still seriously got lynched, it would confirm the other player and all of town would know for the night phase.

Instead, you wasted most of the day being an idiot and not confirming yourself while 4mask barely did anything. And then claimed anyway! Were you afraid of being lynched after this post by FoU? That's such terrible town play if you're telling the truth.

I don't see masons in the alignment rules. Is that the actual name it's going by?

Our alignment is Town, of course. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be masons.

EBWOP: Say, why are you asking? Since you knew the "correct" play for masons, clearly you should already know the mechanics well enough?

Dude I'm not super familiar with mason play myself, but I've seen some games of it and that's what I would do because it makes sense.

I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??

[4maskwolf]

I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??

Masons... aren't an alignment and never have been?  It doesn't actually change your win condition, you're just town.

[ToonyMan]

I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??

Masons... aren't an alignment and never have been?  It doesn't actually change your win condition, you're just town.

I don't really remember masons in past BYORs so I apologize if that's true.

@Webadict:
How do masons work? Are they just town alignment? Do they get a quicktopic together?

[Vector]

Hey Toony, thanks for the WoT. I'm going to post what I'd written before I saw that post, although you've answered part of it. I need to take care of some stuff around the house today so probably won't be active again until evening.

@Vector:
I inherently don't trust most people in a game of mafia, sorry. Why is this suspicious?

It's not reasonable for a player to build 15 cases against every other player. Most players I haven't seriously interacted with, this is going to happen on a 16 player Day 1. Same is true for most players.

I know that you're PFP, but also: nuh-uh, darling.

It's not suspicious that you don't trust people, it's suspicious that you make accusations like that I'm buddying you without any evidence. Calling Jim lazy is one thing, since we've all hashed over that a half dozen times. Buddying is a specific scumtell that no one has brought to the fore yet, and which you brought in without referencing a single one of my posts.

I'm not asking you to make cases on 15 people. I am asking you to, if you think you know who the scumteam is, put your vote there and ask some questions.

The main thing here, though, is that I find it really hard to believe that you actually find all those people on your list scummy. We're here playing the same game and looking at the same people. You know as well as I do that we want to lynch scum. I guess what I'm saying is: I don't believe that you, as town, would have such broad beliefs in who is scum at this point of the game, nor that you, as town, would not try to convince anybody that, say, Leafsnail is actually on the scumteam. Yes, you've changed your vote now -- under pressure.


Now, I know that this is a hard attack to defend yourself against, so here's what we're going to do.

1. I specifically want to know where I buddied you. That was the red flag that made me look closer. So, talk to me about that please. --> [This has been taken care of now, thanks!]

2. Later today, as promised, I'm going to go back and comb through all your posts, and I'll get some more questions for you to answer, or at least some more evidence for everyone else to examine.

[ToonyMan]

I haven't voted Leafsnail yet but it's very tempting.

[ToonyMan]

I'm not asking you to make cases on 15 people. I am asking you to, if you think you know who the scumteam is, put your vote there and ask some questions.

I have! My lynch picks aren't answering the phone! TricMagic isn't responding! Leafsnail isn't responding! I would vote both if I could!

[IcyTea31]

2. IcyTea was lying! He's in a faction with 4maskwolf, my feelings were exactly on point.

I've been trying hard not to intentionally lie, at most withhold information. Got an example of a direct lie I've told?

The reason why I think claiming at the start of the day is better, if you're going to claim at all, is because having two nearly confirmed townies to work with for the whole day is pretty good You'd be able to make pretty convincing scumhunting arguments that people would have a hard time dismissing as scum lies. If one of you still seriously got lynched, it would confirm the other player and all of town would know for the night phase.

And why can't these things be done now? Our arguments are still there, newly bolstered, and lynching one of us would still confirm the other.

Were you afraid of being lynched after this post by FoU?

Nah, this was planned from the start.

Dude I'm not super familiar with mason play myself, but I've seen some games of it and that's what I would do because it makes sense.

I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??

And yet, in your above argument, you refer to the hypothetical masons as "nearly confirmed townies". Even in the post you linked, you say "you could confirm each other". Why are you asking mechanical questions you already know the answers to?

[ToonyMan]

2. IcyTea was lying! He's in a faction with 4maskwolf, my feelings were exactly on point.

I've been trying hard not to intentionally lie, at most withhold information. Got an example of a direct lie I've told?

I don't. I got the lie feeling mainly from your vote on Heydude and subsequent banter after.

The reason why I think claiming at the start of the day is better, if you're going to claim at all, is because having two nearly confirmed townies to work with for the whole day is pretty good You'd be able to make pretty convincing scumhunting arguments that people would have a hard time dismissing as scum lies. If one of you still seriously got lynched, it would confirm the other player and all of town would know for the night phase.

And why can't these things be done now? Our arguments are still there, newly bolstered, and lynching one of us would still confirm the other.

True. However, I believe self-voting was done to deliberately troll which makes me upset, town shouldn't act anti-town on purpose.

Were you afraid of being lynched after this post by FoU?

Nah, this was planned from the start.

4maskwolf backs this claim up too, why guys...seriously why...
*places head in hands*

Dude I'm not super familiar with mason play myself, but I've seen some games of it and that's what I would do because it makes sense.
I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??

And yet, in your above argument, you refer to the hypothetical masons as "nearly confirmed townies". Even in the post you linked, you say "you could confirm each other". Why are you asking mechanical questions you already know the answers to?

I know what masons are. I have read games with masons. I have most likely played games with masons years ago. I don't remember ever being a mason, but maybe I have. Anyway, that's my take of what masons are like from my own mafia experience and I think it's the correct one. I'm not "super familiar" because I don't have a personal connection with them in forever, and I've only read some games recently with them *cough* Raging Loop *cough* and that's how they played it, which I agree with.

[heydude6]

Webadict

Can I have reminder of how much time there is left in the day? I’ve been struck by unexpected family visits and I’d like to know how much time I have left to make my reads list.

If there isn’t much left, I’ll probably put in the effort to rush out a half-assed list covering unresearched opinions on Jim, Toaster, and Iceytea.

After seeing what Dolores wrote about Toonyman, I realize that I probably can’t come up with anything remotely as useful, so I don’t think it will be that big of a loss.

[IcyTea31]

I know what masons are.

You give a paragraph on how you know or almost know that, but don't answer the question. Why are you asking what masons are, when you already know?

A mason is literally defined as being a town-aligned player in a secret chat, so your question to webadict is just "are the masons in this game masons?"

[IcyTea31]

A mason is literally defined as being a town-aligned player in a secret chat

Well, a town-aligned player in a secret chat with other guaranteed town-aligned players. Neighbours are a thing, but not relevant here.

[ToonyMan]

I know what masons are.

You give a paragraph on how you know or almost know that, but don't answer the question. Why are you asking what masons are, when you already know?
A mason is literally defined as being a town-aligned player in a secret chat, so your question to webadict is just "are the masons in this game masons?"

Clearly I don't know what masons are if you're asking that. Sorry, I didn't understand the question.

I know what masons are in mafia in general.

I don't know how masons are classified in Webadict's games.

[IcyTea31]

I don't know how masons are classified in Webadict's games.

Why would it be any different? It's not webadict classifying anything, it's me and 4maskwolf looking at our alignment and ability to talk to each other and saying "we're masons."

Or do you suspect there's more to BYOR masons than the standard variety? Of course there is, but asking for the details of that would be what I'd call rolefishing.

[4maskwolf]

Rolefishing players who, by your own admission, you believe to probably be masons and have an understandable, if not one your agree with, reason to claim when they did.

I think I could believe that, which is really frustrating since I find it incredibly humiliating against my townplay to be the vote candidate of masons. I definitely disagree with both of your plays this day, but I see why you want me dead right now.

I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.

[Jim Groovester]

Toonyman.

ToonyMan is who I think is the best candidate to lynch today.

I'm liking the case on Toonyman right now, as beautifully set out by dolores and IcyTea. Bandwagon, ho!

ToonyMan

This developed quickly.

If I had more patience I'd go dig into why each of you suspect ToonyMan but instead I'm going to be lazy and not do that and just say 'hey this ToonyMan bandwagon is kinda fishy' and leave it there.

masons

My gut doesn't want to believe this but I also don't have a compelling alternative where IcyTea31 and 4maskwolf would share a chat (which I don't have reason to doubt) and wouldn't want to keep that a secret.