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[TricMagic]

I have come to make a last post, and find fries under my hat.. Also able to use two abilities tonight, but that is of Zero use to me.  night.

[FallacyofUrist]

dolores: Why is NJW2000 rated so highly as town in your reads list? There's not as much detail about your read on them as you have on your reads of, say, Vector or heydude.


LuckyOwl:

Ugh. Let's see his justification...well one thing I think everyone is glossing over is why he would say he needs IcyTea31's hat to everyone? If he is scum wouldn't he keep that to himself? I don't think we would slip up that bad. He can be a bastard, sure. But he's not foolish enough to say such a thing as a scum. This of course leads back to that question. Why would he tell everyone he need IcyTea31's hat? I think a few people mentioned that he needs IcyTea31 dead in order to get that hat. Sooo...if that's the case, do we really need a townie who need others to die in order to become powerful? I know I sort of went off with the question...but I don't really understand TricMagic's move when I actually think about it. Still, I think there's just a big misunderstanding and maybe he can explain himself.

The thing is, if he's scum, he could keep that secret, or he could tell everyone to make himself look careless, which could make people think he's more town since he's 'not foolish enough to say such a thing as scum'. That's what we call WIFOM - or 'Wine In Front Of Me', a reference to a classic movie called the Princess Bride. In the movie, a villain named Vizzini is challenged by one of the main characters to a mind game. The main character pours two glasses of wine and poisons one of them in secret, then sets them both down on the stump they were drinking at. The main character let Vizzini switch the glasses if he so desired to.

Which glass was poisoned - the one he set in front of himself, or the one he set in front of Vizzini? The thing is, there's no way to tell that through pure logic. He could have put it in front of himself thinking Vizzini might switch them, or put it in front of Vizzini thinking he wouldn't switch them, or put it in front of himself thinking that Vizzini would think that he wouldn't put it in front of himself because he would think that Vizzini wouldn't switch them...

Wine In Front Of Me is a maddening, useless logic puzzle, and the main character of the Princess Bride won that challenge not by choosing to poison the right glass, but by poisoning both of them and spending years beforehand building up an immunity to the poison, so that no matter what Vizzini chose, he would die.

It's not enough to look at just one point of Tric's actions, because it could always be mind games. No, you should look at every bit of what he's done so far.

I'm voting him because 1, he's making no effort to actually hunt down scum players, 2, he seems to care more about his hats than the lives of town players, and 3, his votes aren't going anywhere remotely productive (related to point 1).

Why aren't you voting him? Do you disagree with these points? If so, why? Not judging you if you do disagree - I just want to get your logic out here.

[Vector]

Leafsnail, Toonyman, Vector: Care to reevaluate your current vote? Assuming Wuba's count is correct, that is. Not that I find voting Tric to be a bad idea, but I at least want you to tell me why you're still voting Tric - or select a better target (in your view).

My justification is that I believe he's a 3rd party, and not just that, but he's a 3rd party who doesn't care about anything but killing a particular dude so he can get his desired hat. That reads as strong anti-town to me.

I don't believe the "I can become a doctor" claim; this reminds me a hell of a lot of the good old "I'm a VT " fakeclaim. I believe he wants to power up but I find it difficult to believe that he needs hats in order to get a protect. "Get a protect by killing a dude" seems underpowered.

His role as outlined meshes well with other 3rd party roles I've seen written into Wubba's BYORs thus far. If he wants to become a doctor, it's at least in theory *in order to protect town*. If that's the case, his refusing to acknowledge that ICT might be town is suspicious. It just reads as complete BS to me. He has taken no meaningful action to defend himself against these allegations either.

I've seen a lot of people playing 3rd parties very badly, and sometimes it looks like this. I can believe this is a non-town player trying to win and kinda screwing it up.


Would I stake all my RL money on this dude being an SK? No. But I really think he is trouble. I'm not moving my vote.




I'm aware that I promised and haven't yet delivered a read list. It's gonna take a bit, today's a day off for me, but also I really think we should lynch Tric unless we somehow manage to dig up the scumteam before the 29th. My scumdar is pinging hard enough that I'd be good with hammering him, too.

. . . Preferably not before I can finish my reread, though.

[FallacyofUrist]

Now that I think about it, when I remember when I watched Merg play A Hat In Time on Youtube... the game was about collecting items called Time Pieces in order to power a spaceship to allow the Hat Kid to return to their home.

I can believe Wuba making it the hats that Tric needed to collect instead of the Time Pieces in order to simplify the game. So if Tric is a third party, that makes a lot of sense.

Does also remind me of Mafiakart, where I had a win condition of 'collect four abilities from other players to win'. I can imagine wuba creating something similar to that. 'Collect things to win' seems like a common Outsider win condition in these parts.

If you're right, though, we're not lynching scum, we're lynching an irrelevant third party. Which is still way better than lynching town (and we could take his hats and such to benefit us), but I'd prefer lynching an actively hostile player. But you're right, if we don't find a better target then a third party is a good choice.

[juicebox]

Alright last post for me until tomorrow afternoon, probably.

Luckyowl, I was voting you because you were one of my scum suspects, along with IcyTea, and I felt like I yeah was getting adequate pressure from other sources, so I wanted to go ahead and pressure you. And the result I got is that you're more than likely just noobtown. There's no way you post the way you've been posting while being on a scumteam, so I'm going to go ahead and unvote

So now it's on to IcyTea. While I don't think he's actually scum, his play so far hasn't really been townlike, so I'm inclined to think that he's third party
I think that his case on Toaster is rather weak, and so I'm comfortable resting my vote here for now.

[Toaster]

Vector:  Did you used to have a cup of tea as an avatar?  I've misread about four of IcyTea's posts as yours now and it keeps getting me confused.



Webadict:  Are there four mafia and/or non-town players?  The opening flavor mentions four silhouettes.  If a Jester is lynched, does it end the game or do they just win and leave?

Can we get a LurkerTracker?



LuckyOwl:

Toaster: You're right. I'm not really helping just trying to show how townie I am.

If you want to impress your towncred upon me, go hunt some scum.

And what's wrong with trust me? If I hadn't said that would you have trust me? I think you're just overthinking such a small habit word I said. Like honestly. But yeah I tend to play like this early on and in day 2 contribute on the conversation with actual evidence to talk about.

No, but it's a saying I find relevant.  And I'll believe it when I see it.

Putting pressure on someone is anti-town especially if you're trying to do it early on.

This is the opposite of true.  The opposite is true.


IcyTea:

Roles might not be alignment-indicative, but I'll say the role name is a really damning one.

That bit I underlined: you really think a role name a player submitted before the game started is going to have any influence on their alignment?

This was a breadcrumb to tell that I knew what was in the contract before its real text was posted, because the name in question literally is damning. If you read the whole sentence, you'd know I don't. Is looking for "slips" all you do on D1?

In fact, if you care who I suspect and where my vote is so much, let's put it on you: Toaster. If you're not going to develop your cases to ascertain their truths and don't even care about figuring out factual matters, I don't see how your mindset is in anyway town-sided.

No, but I'm not going to look a gift slip in the mouth.

Way better than seeing it unused, actually.  And matters are developing; it's not just you I have my eyes on.


TricMagic:

As a note, people can give hats to others using an action, even in the day. So giving them to me makes more sense than hoarding them. Though I kinda expect you will get lynched Icytea. I expected a faster response.

Boy howdy are you sure expecting people to trust you as solid gold.

Either way, I have a perfectly good reason to lynch Icytea no matter my alignment. There is a 2/3 chance of getting a good hat out of it. The --- is more random to me and useful in the hands of the Mafia.

Especially since you don't have the town's interests at heart.  You stink of third party.



Heydude:

It was quite a powerful ability. If it weren't for the "Leave a Comment" loophole, they would have crippled me and thus the town's first night at the very least. Whoever used this ability was pretty damn confident that it wouldn't be wasted and hurt their own team. That kind of confidence would only come from someone who is scum.

Okay.  I wanted to be 100% sure on the timing so it wouldn't move around later.



Fallacy:  Do you think running around threatening people with your big scary fries got you positive results?





I was going to go back and get a feel on who was just coasting, but it turns out the list of people who are just coasting is pretty long; too long for it to be useful D1.   I'm pretty confident that TricMagic isn't town; he's way too self-interested for it to be the case that he's town, and I don't care for his current vote on LuckyOwl; he quickly jumps from not having LuckyOwl on his scumreads to voting LuckyOwl for a claim of inconsistent logic, which I don't follow at all.


TricMagic.

[Vector]

Does also remind me of Mafiakart, where I had a win condition of 'collect four abilities from other players to win'. I can imagine wuba creating something similar to that. 'Collect things to win' seems like a common Outsider win condition in these parts.

If you're right, though, we're not lynching scum, we're lynching an irrelevant third party. Which is still way better than lynching town (and we could take his hats and such to benefit us), but I'd prefer lynching an actively hostile player. But you're right, if we don't find a better target then a third party is a good choice.

Two things: one, the character doesn't specifically have to be an outsider. I'm leaning SK, which is why I don't really see 3rd-party-hunting as "irrelevant."

Second: I think I remember Panda's uPick had some kind of scum role where a laser needed to be charged up over multiple phases and gave an additional NK (I may not be remembering this clearly, it was obviously a really long time ago). I'm leaning third party based on feeling, but the mechanics of the role don't guarantee that in any way.

There's no way you post the way you've been posting while being on a scumteam, so I'm going to go ahead and unvote

So now it's on to IcyTea. While I don't think he's actually scum, his play so far hasn't really been townlike, so I'm inclined to think that he's third party
I think that his case on Toaster is rather weak, and so I'm comfortable resting my vote here for now.

Couple things:

1. I was the one who brought up that it's unlikely that all of the lolrandom came from a scumteam. That was a specific point about the *volume* of lolrandom players, *not* a point that any individual one of them *couldn't* be on a scumteam. For example, I can specifically imagine someone like Jim going apoplectic if he were stuck on a team with, say, three of them. I have *been* on scumteams with people who act like LuckyOwl.

This used to be called the "Org defense," the idea that it's impossible for someone to play that badly. Don't fall for it. You need to work harder to actually determine people's alignments.


2. We're getting to be later in D1. It is not the time to "rest votes places." You need justification, some kind of explanation for why you think the case on Toaster is weak. Right now your vote is not adding pressure, and we need pressure to crack people and figure out what's going on.

If you don't think that he's actually scum: who do you think is scum? If you think he's third party, why is it better to lynch ICT than Tric?

Vector:  Did you used to have a cup of tea as an avatar?  I've misread about four of IcyTea's posts as yours now and it keeps getting me confused.

I'm always food, except for that month or so when I was Rorschach from Watchmen riding a cow. I think I might have had a cup of tea pre-hiatus, but more recently I think I was Thai ice coffee for a bit, which would resemble ICT's avatar somewhat.

[ToonyMan]

@TricMagic:

I can answer the question of the badge seller. So long as I am alive new stock will be added each phase. I didn't expect everyone to instantly get 100 pons though, otherwise I would have picked a different badge to sell. Specifically the No Bonk Badge which causes kills you do to fail.

Why didn't you pick the No Bonk Badge in the first place?

Also, you turned onto me pretty quickly Toony

Did I? I can only recall finding you scummy and evasive.


@Luckyowl:

Juicebox: I understand my playstyle is weird. But you really have to trust me("he said trust me!, he's scum!). I got some townsread on a few. But, I'm not really good at the whole argument and debating. What I'm really looking forward is catching the scum through mechanics than words. And looking at my roles I'm confidence on catching the Mafia next night.  I just need to find my fellow townies so we can work together.  Right now, I'm extending my trust on Nirur Torir, and ToonyMan. I still have a day action and hopefully out of the three that I trust will make use of my day action. If I'm to die right here.

Really don't know what to say to this other than Why? Given that two actions seem to have gone off already I'm hoping there aren't any more.

I haven't done any action yet and my action is more of a Support action.

Oookay...


@NJW2000:

In any case: IcyTea claims the PMs weren't even sent at the same time, rather at least a couple of minutes apart. There's definitely the possibility that heydude was sent his even earlier. Also, even if IcyTea can be considered to have 100% confirmed that heydude was completely truthful about the times, the following logic holds

I think I can see what you're saying. Let me try to break this down:

Case 1:
1. Heydude is the contract sender
2. Heydude sends a contract to IcyTea and then claims he was targeted as well
3. Heydude fakes a contract that incriminates IcyTea, nearly getting him modkilled
4. IcyTea obviously calls him out for lying
5. Heydude backs down off IcyTea

I think this is more likely than Case 2. Heydude could be town or mafia here, but I don't believe this right now.

Case 2:
1. The contract sender is someone else, possibly on a scum team with Heydude
2. Heydude "receives" the contract earlier than he claims, possibly coordinates with his buddies first
3. Heydude pretends to flip out and creates a fake PM that incriminates IcyTea, nearly getting him modkilled
4. IcyTea also claims to have received a contract, obviously calls Heydude out for lying, is able to verify the contents
5. Heydude backs down off IcyTea

This only makes sense if Heydude is scum, but I don't believe this is true either. It implies Heydude and the contract sender are on the same team, and it makes their actions baffling just to take down IcyTea, who was already a lynch candidate.

So Toonyman, why is rapidly sharing information someone else has anyway indicative that the sharer is town?

My impression from Heydude's panicking is that he didn't know anyone else had that information and wanted to help town ASAP, did you know?


@FallacyofUrist:

Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, 4maskwolf, I also have my eyes on y'all.

I was also fried today. I assume this was your doing. I don't know what this entails but we shall see.

Oddly enough though, even though the Tric train is biggest right now, only my vote on him has substance behind it. Leafsnail's vote on him was an RVS vote and Toony / Vector's votes barely had justification behind it at all.

Bite me.


@dolores:

ToonyMan: what's your position on the alignments of dolores and ICT? Why have you dropped the strand of ICT self-voting in RVS that made you want to go after him? Why aren't you voting for me, is just because you feel very strongly that TricMagic needs to be lynched?

I've come to the conclusion that we don't agree on a metaplay level, and I don't think your scum hunting has stood out as bad so far so whatever.
IcyTea stopped voting himself so I'm a bit happy about that too, but I don't believe their alignment one way or the other yet.

'Scum' players (4maskwolf, Leafsnail, TricMagic, ToonyMan): it'd help a lot if you could post a set of articulated reads, particularly 4mask/Leaf/Tric since I don't know what you're thinking and where your opinions are at in the game so far.

Sure.

4maskwolf - can't say
Leafsnail, he's being way too quiet, I can confirm this is a scumtell of his
TricMagic, survivor at best, incredibly unhelpful, wants IcyTea dead for his own benefit

Some other thoughts I don't know where to put:
Jim Groovester is being very laaazy which I think is a scumtell of his
Luckyowl strikes me as newbie town, after playing with them in Bastard Paranormal 3
Juicebox feels like 4maskwolf to me right now, don't know

Toaster and Vector haven't pressured me at all, but I also agree with their points, unsure of them.

[IcyTea31]

And now you're voting Toaster for the perfectly acceptable action of asking for your list of suspicions.

I already gave a list:

Spoiler: Reads (click to show/hide)

Short answer zone, haven't really interacted with these yet:
4maskwolf: Low profile play with promise of later improvement.
Caz: Not playing.
TricMagic: As incomprehensible as always.
Leafsnail: Just fluff except for gotcha on Tric
notquitethere: Promised to start playing later.
Luckyowl: what the fuck
juicebox: Keeps low profile.
NJW2000: Low activity, understands how this particular setup works.
FallacyofUrist: Activelurking.


ToonyMan:
Started with a couple good looks, especially in dealing with dolores, but I don't fully understand the motivation to completely disengage from me. General strategy is orthodox if outdated; townish  in general but I consider it more likely to be scum acting "town" rather than town!Toony. Don't know their metagame well enough.

dolores:
To be honest I've only skimmed most of their posts and will have to come back to them, but it seems their mask is still unbroken. Shows a different mask to different people, however, which is curious.

Vector:
Has followed pretty much the same thought patterns I'd have followed in the situations they've responded to. Those are town thought patterns, for the record. Push on me is both in good faith and not lazy.

Jim Groovester:
Ran out of patience for me after two posts. For someone who just enjoyed a highly unusual bastard mafia, this is a very strangely low tolerance for unusual plays. I'm going to assume it's real life stress for the moment an withold judgment, but we're going to need more than two posts' worth of interaction.

Toaster:
Play is lazy, showing little initiative in scumhunting. Saw a hint of distancing between them and Fallacy, but that'd be too easy. Will expect improvement.

heydude6: Was going in the short answer bin with the mechanical fluff earlier, but I've been hit by an ability. The ability doesn't seem like the kind that double-targets, so I'm going to say it's heydude6 himself who's behind it. Roles might not be alignment-indicative, but I'll say the role name is a really damning one. To be fair, it's outguessing to say that a killing ability won't double-target, but since it's "voluntary" I'm not entirely certain.

A couple addenda, now that things have evolved:
-TricMagic cares about gaining night abilities and the nonstandard mechanics more than about lynching scum. For anyone else, I'd be voting them in a heartbeat, but it's Tric, so it's not out of the question they honestly believe that that is a town thing to do. Still lynchable, of course.
-Luckyowl, in all that nonsense, managed to (probably accidentally) claim one of their abilities to me. The ability isn't of a kind that makes sense for solo players like SKs to have, but would fit town and mafia equally. Since a mafia team would put at least a tiny bit of effort in making LO's posts to be less dumb, I have to conclude that LO is probably town.
-I've moved to believing heydude6 wasn't behind the contract ability. Generous about information, and the failed gambit is believable. Hasn't thought out scum strategies very deeply, which points to a town mindset.

You've definitely got some kind of shenanigans going on, right?

You don't?
What are your thoughts on the contract situation between me and heydude?

All Player's Current Cases and Their Reasons

How does one read these tables? Are you reading people's cases only on where their votes are?

[notquitethere]

Pfp

Icy

What are your thoughts on the contract situation between me and heydude?

something about badges? I've read the thread but its confusing. Care to explain?

How does one read these tables? Are you reading people's cases only on where their votes are?

The first list was a current vote count with all the reasons for each vote listed. Talk is cheap, I mostly just care about votes. The second list was a list of how spurious I thought each of the cases was.

[notquitethere]

Anyone, I've been trying to pay attention but I think I missed an important bit of info. I know we all have currency. Is there only one badge that can be bought or multiple? Clue me in kids.

[notquitethere]

Leafsnail, why should we lynch a player like Tric on D1?

[IcyTea31]

something about badges? I've read the thread but its confusing. Care to explain?

Saga begins from this post:

In other words, someone just maliciously targeted me with a day action. It was at 10:02:06 pm, which is 1 minute and 2 seconds after Toaster's post. I think I must have been doing too good of job as town then.

Who do you think is the most likely suspect?

Basically, heydude claims to have been targeted by a day action, as do I. It's a "contract" where the recipient has to make a payment to the sender or die. He posted a fake version of the contract and I called him out for lying. We talked for a bit and I concluded heydude wasn't lying. I believe the most likely culprit is an SK, so heydude being mafia is not completely ruled out, but his mindset in discussing the situation wasn't one (smart) mafia would have.

The first list was a current vote count with all the reasons for each vote listed. Talk is cheap, I mostly just care about votes. The second list was a list of how spurious I thought each of the cases was.

Thing is, most cases are the whole conversation preceding and succeeding them, not just the single post with the actual vote. This is a very non-holistic method of evaluation, and also very different from the methods I've seen you use in the past. What's changed?

[IcyTea31]

Anyone, I've been trying to pay attention but I think I missed an important bit of info. I know we all have currency. Is there only one badge that can be bought or multiple? Clue me in kids.

Right now there's one for sale that gives an action priority, but apparently later more will be added to the selection.

[notquitethere]

Thanks for the updates.

Of course the whole conversation and reasons are important, but the point of that post was to bring myself up to speed with the current state of the game by taking a snapshot at the most critical bit of information there is: each person's votes and their stated reasons for voting. This is a technique I've employed before, its suitable for d1, and isn't the only tool in my box.