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[TricMagic]

As a note, people can give hats to others using an action, even in the day. So giving them to me makes more sense than hoarding them. Though I kinda expect you will get lynched Icytea. I expected a faster response.

[NJW2000]

As a question to everyone, why would you want the badge being sold? For me it's mostly to avoid being roleblocked when I need to do something.

Right now, I don't want the badge being sold. I shall keep my pons.

Why do you know you'll need to do this "something" so soon in the game? Why do you think someone will roleblock you? Are you town-aligned?
Not rolefishing, I'm interested in your motivations.

I can't say I trust this certainty that you'll need to do a night action barely a day into the game, TricMagic. Your openness in your purchasing is however to be commended: Town needs information.

Why is this a reason to suspect anybody in a BYOR? Don't most roles have some sort of night component that people wouldn't like being blocked on?

If I were scum or SK, I'd know what I'd want to do tonight: nightkill, do something to look town, or screw over town in some way. These aims probably wouldn't be changed by D1 play. It'd be between mildly and extremely important to me that they weren't blocked.

As town, I don't know which of my abilities I want to use, or if I want to use any. Me being blocked could also give town information, I suspect: it isn't necessarily worth 100 pons to make it so someone else, quite possibly a town player, can't roleblock me. I almost certainly don't have all the abilities I want - how do I know one-shot unblockability will even be worth much compared to potential future badges?

The public purchase also ensures nobody will try to block Tric- I'm uncertain whether this is suspect or not. Think not.

It is also worth noting that a P0 action can't be tracked(I think?), and occurs before anyone is protected or anything. Unless the scumkill is highly baroque, they'd be crazy not to get at least one badge.

Granted, there could be abilities that would make a town player really want to do an action early: for all we know, Tric gets to give a protecting cupcake to everyone that visits him after he activates a "Bake a Dozen cupcakes" priority-9 ability, and he wants to get his baking in early. Nonetheless, I'm still a little suspiscious.


Questions:

TricMagic: My question stands. Given you voted IcyTea apparently for not answering your question here, I'm a little bemused. Also, why the hell should people give you hats?

LuckyOwl: Here you say some posts look scummy to you. Can you give an example of one that looks scummy, and perhaps explain why it looks scummy?



Toonyman:

[Heydude's claim to have been targeted] strikes me as anti-mafia. A scum member would definitely be cautious and check it over first with their buddies, if they even decided to say anything at all, before giving information to the town. I don't think Heydude is mafia, and probably not malicious either.

And how, pray, do you know Heydude didn't check it over with their buddies before making the post?

Before you start, anything you say about timings is unlikely to convince me. He could very easily have lied about when he recieved the PM, it's not difficult. Even if he didn't, there's still fifteen minutes between him getting the PM and posting stuff to the thread, ample time for a quick discussion. Yet you're sure he didn't cautiously check it over with his buddies. Even if the mod PM had a time (distasteful metagame stuff here) he could very well have edited that.

Besides, getting targeted is basically non-incriminating, and at least the person who used the ability on HeyDude would know they'd used it, so scum!Heydude wouldn't be very smart to pretend it never happened, would they? It's pretty clear that honesty would be the obvious approach. Yet you're so sure he did post at once, and that this is town-ish behaviour.

This suggests one or more of:
       a) you're behind the contracts, and know the timings of when you sent them
       b) you know heydude didn't discuss it with a scumteam because you're scum (an unlikely slip, I'll allow)
       c) you're not actually thinking hard about the event, just posting about it
       d) you are so completely certain that heydude is town that you assumed it would be universally accepted that he gave the town the info immediately
       e) you actually want us to engage with the WIFOM of "scum!Heydude wouldn't immediately give town the information, so heydude is town"


Regardless of the kerfuffle around Heydude's post, all of these possibilities are rather suspect. As is the fact that you're apparently buddying/townreading someone on the basis of a weak and easily faked "towntell" - or to give you your euphemistic due, "anti-mafia and probably not malicious"-tell.

What gives, Toony?



LuckyOwl for obscenely aligning themselves with IcyTea in their first, second and third posts. If this is their townplay and we lynch them... no great loss.

I don't particularly want to D1 lynch IcyTea or FoU as they're clearly intentionally playing in a way that appears bad. Frankly, I don't care to engage with them. I'd rather deal with that nonsense entirely in the context of the nightgame. I really don't trust Tric or dolores, but can't find a case I can justify voting them on, so better to hold my horses there for a bit. Interested in the Heydude situation, not sure I completely got what went on, will have to reread.

PPE: I wrote most of this before the Nirur Torir vote on Luckyowl, but if anything, it makes me even happier with my vote.

[Vector]

Vector:

I think that the case for ICT is more or less isomorphic to the case for FallacyofUrist. Both have been doing something like stalling and acting random (seemingly) for the sake of randomness. Anyway -- I think that Jim's case is credible for ICT, by Day 1 standards.

You're letting Jim off awfully easy here.  Why?  I know you know he can do better than that.

Cuz it was Christmas/Christmas Eve :V

I'm also sympathetic to his stance. There has been a really annoying amount of lolrandum for D1 and a lot of Dakarian-length WoTs to very little effect, lots of people asking questions that are clearly irrelevant, and a lot of shitposting by dolores about how Good at the Mafias they are and the fruitlessness of various elements of the daygame (townhunting, etc.).

I'm deeply annoyed at the ratio of noise to genuine effort. For a Mafia subforum that apparently no longer believes in RVS and considers it dated, there is a really shocking amount of random/WIFOMy questioning. Nothing about the current play is making me think "ah yes, how unenlightened I was, time to abandon the old ways." The amount of sheer wearing-out-the-town 48 hours into D1 reminds me most of Pandarsenic's uPick, and it's precisely because of the threat of this kind of nonsense that I was hoping for shorter days with extends.

(With that said, I understand completely why we crossed over. I'm also saying that this is total BS.)


NQT, I remember from experience that it takes time for your playstyle to start rolling. However, I'm also curious at this point about your soft reads and opinions on the various bandwagons forming. "Takes time to start rolling" is different from "lurks through D1." (yes I know it is/was Christmas.)

As a note, people can give hats to others using an action, even in the day. So giving them to me makes more sense than hoarding them. Though I kinda expect you will get lynched Icytea. I expected a faster response.

*buries head in hands* Why exactly should everyone give you their hats? Because it will make you happy?

[TricMagic]

Simple, because I can use them. With three hats my full night power is available to me. If I were to collect any hat other than the Dweller Mask, my protection abilities would be improved. Granted, you don't now my alignment, but if I had the ability to kill, why would I be so public in asking?

[Vector]

Granted, you don't now my alignment, but if I had the ability to kill, why would I be so public in asking?

This is WIFOM.

[juicebox]

Spoiler: Jim (click to show/hide)

Are you planning to leave a comment?

No. Even if I could, I'll be using [REDACTED] at night.

Mon Dieu, you really like leaping at people for activity even with less than two hours of the game having passed by.

It's such a shitty and unsatisfying reason to vote for someone that I need to set it up as far in advance as possible to gain any traction in convincing other players to go along with it. If the content of an early D1 post causes me to infer that I'm going to need to attempt to lynch a player over their lack of activity, that implies that I'm unlikely to have stronger reasons to think that player is scum later in the day since I won't have activity to draw such a conclusion from.

You seem fun and like a nice person to get along with and cooperate with.

I don't especially want a kumbayah ending and I especially don't want planning for one taking up the space and effort that should be spent on valuable daygame content. Besides being distasteful, I agree with Leafsnail that it's a low% option. The less wide-spread and coordinated the effort to make use of my bonus wincon the more likely I am to get to use it in the middle of the plot and not e.g. get killed and have my role-traits recycled onto other players.

I may be rusty, but don't cut me any slack.  I'll get back in the groove quickly.  Also, anyone:  I used to be able to hit ctrl-b to bold (as in auto insert the tags), and now it won't.  Is that a browser thing or a forum setting somewhere I'm missing?

You can post without javascript but the input hijacking inside the form uses it.

Spoiler: Toaster (click to show/hide)

Interesting.  What do you believe in?  How do you get information out of someone recalcitrant, if not pressure?

I believe that the fidelity of ones performance as projecting townieness is lower when they're not town. Eventually, given enough content, you'll betray the fact that your intentions in play are not the intentions that you would have if you were town. Since players aren't perfect, you'll do this or appear to do this despite being town, but on the whole will do this less so as town and more as scum or other roles with non-town interests. The lack of an intrinsic interest in the alignments of other players, especially as a (currently claimed) role with no other method of determining the actions needed to solve the game (i.e. who to lynch) is probably the main thing I'm looking for on early D1, which I'd describe broadly as passiveness.
There's no way of getting information out of someone recalcitrant. You can always just not post, and it's impossible to really draw any kind of conclusions from that; eventually all you know is that the person isn't contributing to the town. Ideally, I'd have some indicator that the person doesn't have an interest in doing so, like a bad reply to a post where they're accused of (active) lurking from before they go radio silent, which increasingly helps me convince other players to vote for them as it goes unresolved but does not actually tell me any more about their alignment than it did the first time they posted the response.

Really?  You don't think it's possible for a scum player to accidentally out their buddy or reveal a non-mafia through excessive force?  I have pegged a townie before by seeing a mafioso tunnel down said townie with silly arguments.  You don't ever look for that?

Not at all. This is pure WIFOM. You're basing your reads of other players on the posts of someone with an intrinsic information advantage they want to deceive you about. To give a trivial example, if there was a formula for acting out a sequence where poor arguments are used to attack a player and so subsequently on your lynch the town accepted that that person was probably town, in any mountainous game with more than one mafscum you could act out this scenario with one of your partners, get lynched, and then let them coast to the win on the pro-town-appearance of your act.
I'm hoping to discern the motivations of other players and then judge what alignment that player would have those motivations as. I don't learn anything about a player's motivations from the content of another player (except where it provokes a reaction from the examinee).

This is low effort, and farming the backing of your opinion out to Toony.

Correct. I'm not lynching Caz over it and never was, as could be inferred by my desire to not vote 4maskwolf so as to not sour my (aborted by their favorable response) attempt to run a similar type of lynch on 4maskwolf.
I don't really have a strong opinion on Caz so far but also expect that they might need to be lynched on the basis of a refusal to engage with the daygame and contribute to the town at some point further in on this or likely a later day. The more I can create the impression/awareness of Caz's lack of town contributions in the mind of the other town players the easier it will be to convince them to vote for Caz for that reason which is important since it's such a milquetoast and uncompelling reason to lynch someone over.

Spoiler: FoU (click to show/hide)

dolores:

[7]: I mainly asked so many to see how you'd respond to a poke of that magnitude. Response noted.

[3] What magnitude? None at all? You're responding to Vector's out-of-RVS Case on FallacyofUrist. You'd do that whether you were scum or town. The only players this sheds light on are you and Vector. I don't even know anything about your opinions on players other than Vector, which is a problem I don't need to rectify if I jump on the wagon against you.
You're voting vector and staking pretty much your entire D1-to-date on this attempt. Do you actually think vector is scum, or you're just voting for them, with nothing else on the backburner?

[4] FallacyofUrist
I kinda dislike unvoting caz here because I don't think their behavior to date is acceptable, but I also think a resting vote is going to bother FoU a lot more

[1] I hope to be able to intensely grill 4 or 5 players. I get that that's not everyone, but better to do a decent job with a few players than a poor job on everyone.

[2] I would complain about your insults, but honestly you're completely right. I'm terrible at mafia daygaming and if you really were in games with me, you'd know that. I rely on the night game and cunning gambits to get anything done. Half the time that fails completely too, though.

[3] It's the first 24 hours of day 1. Out of roughly five IRL days. I'm starting with Vector but I'll move on to others. And my vote right now means nothing, I know you read that. Probably. Maybe.

Fries for the fry god, tomatoes for the ketchup throne.

[4] If I ever start to feel pressured from you, I'll just self-hypnotize myself to be unable to feel emotion while reading your posts. I wouldn't do that for everyone who goes after me, but you're kinda an ass, so I think it's worthwhile.

(1) I disagree but I can believe that you believe that.
(2) Deep-reading inferences of the specifics of a role from the descriptions a mod gives is something I'd describe as nightgame stuff, but anyway this kind of disagreement over meta issues isn't especially alignment indicative.
My concern here is that your response to the accusation that you're playing in an anti-town way is "yes, I'm not planning on having a good town game". Which again, I could believe Town!FoU doing, but it puts you closer to the chopping block than other players which is both bad if you are town and do get lynched and use unpleasant knock-on effects like letting scum get away with less activity by lowering the ambient level of pro-town activity they have to match to avoid being picked up over it.
(4) That's still some level of a response, which is more than I'd get out of leaving the vote sitting most of the other players who have posted who I want more out of. If I had a gun I'd shoot tric and caz and you and 4maskwolf, but I don't especially think leaving a vote on any of you will get much more of a response than I've gotten out of it here.

juicebox: anything stand out to you so far? I'm not getting any strong feelings out of the long-form responses besides thinking FoU should be playing a stronger town game which I anticipated I'd be thinking before this game ever started. Has anyone made any kind of impactful slip so far?
PPE:
4maskwolf: any strong impressions from toaster/jim/toony/vector/njw (the players besides FoU with longform responses) so far?

Oops missed this question. At the time you posted this nothing stood out particularly. However as I read and reread I'm starting to collect some information, which I will be putting into a reads list shortly.

[TricMagic]

Granted, you don't now my alignment, but if I had the ability to kill, why would I be so public in asking?

This is WIFOM.

Either way, I have a perfectly good reason to lynch Icytea no matter my alignment. There is a 2/3 chance of getting a good hat out of it. The --- is more random to me and useful in the hands of the Mafia.

Thinking on it, what mask do you have Icytea? It won't mean much, but still nice for everyone to know.

[ToonyMan]

Unvote Dolores.

@NJW2000:

What gives, Toony?

Are you reading the thread? Unless Heydude and IcyTea are bussing each other (which I highly highly doubt on Day 1), they both claim a PM "a couple minutes" from each other:

Unfortunately, though I did get a mafia reaction eventually (which I am proud of), it wasn't through a post but through an anonymous day action, leaving you as the only person to attack me and be read.

Saying once more because it's important: this didn't happen. I received my PM before you made that post, and only a couple minutes after time you said you received it.

In my opinion, this makes it incredibly unlikely they're on the same team.


@Tricmagic:

Granted, you don't now my alignment, but if I had the ability to kill, why would I be so public in asking?

This is WIFOM.

Either way, I have a perfectly good reason to lynch Icytea no matter my alignment. There is a 2/3 chance of getting a good hat out of it.

No, screw you.

[Vector]

Yeah, TricMagic. This screams 3rd-party wincon and possible SK.

[Nirur Torir]

LuckyOwl for obscenely aligning themselves with IcyTea in their first, second and third posts. If this is their townplay and we lynch them... no great loss.

I don't particularly want to D1 lynch IcyTea or FoU as they're clearly intentionally playing in a way that appears bad. Frankly, I don't care to engage with them. I'd rather deal with that nonsense entirely in the context of the nightgame. I really don't trust Tric or dolores, but can't find a case I can justify voting them on, so better to hold my horses there for a bit. Interested in the Heydude situation, not sure I completely got what went on, will have to reread.

PPE: I wrote most of this before the Nirur Torir vote on Luckyowl, but if anything, it makes me even happier with my vote.

You seem pretty strong on Toony, just above this. You feel your vote is better spent on trying to lynch a novice for having a poor town game, who nobody seems to have as a strong suspect, and without making any case or trying to advance a case?
You "don't trust Tric or Dolores," but have no questions for them?

Either way, I have a perfectly good reason to lynch Icytea no matter my alignment. There is a 2/3 chance of getting a good hat out of it. The --- is more random to me and useful in the hands of the Mafia.

Do you have a reason for anyone else to vote them, other than your surprise doc claim?

[webadict]

Nirur Torir, heydude6, and notquitethere look out at the crowd of Doppelgangers, mesmerized. They notice that the Doppelgangers seem to sway in perfect rhythm. Back and forth. Back... and forth.

Back.

And forth.

"What do you think they want," asks Nirur Torir. "Are they hungry?"

heydude6 opens his mouth and is promptly cut off by notquitethere. "I don't wanna think about it."

Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf - juicebox*,
dolores -
FallacyofUrist - 4maskwolf*, heydude6*,
heydude6 -
IcyTea31 - TricMagic*, Jim Groovester*, Toaster*,
Jim Groovester -
juicebox -
Leafsnail -
Luckyowl - Nirur Torir*, NJW2000*,
Nirur Torir -
NJW2000 -
notquitethere -
Toaster - IcyTea31*, FallacyofUrist*,
ToonyMan - dolores*,
TricMagic - Leafsnail*, ToonyMan*, Vector*,
Vector -
No Lynch -

Not Voting - notquitethere, Luckyowl,

9 To Hammer. Day ends December 29th, 2020 at 19:00 CST (~76 hours from now).

NOTE: If you notice your vote is wrong, let me know. I'm patching Mamobo to work every time one of you decides that someone has to be called by a different name, so if you vote someone by nickname, it won't be caught immediately.

[juicebox]

@webadict Will the badge seller only be selling one badge at a time, or will he just add more badges to the list of badges he is selling?

Also, will we be getting the lurkertracker soon or do you still need time to work on Mamobo?

I want to wait for the lurkertracker to do my full reads list, but if the wait turns out to be longer than a couple of hours then I'll just do it the hard way.

In the interim, my short form reads list goes something like this:

Town: 4mask, Vector, Toaster

Scum/Non-Town: IcyTea, LuckyOwl

Null: Everyone else
(These reads are subject to chang between now and when I post my full reads list

LuckyOwl Make your playstyle make sense to me. How does IcyTea's self vote make him more town than everyone else. Why does writing a wall of text make someone appear scummy? Why not try to make townreads so that you can begin to trust more people?

Nirur Torir My D1 plan is to gather as much information as I can, and to look for potential slips from the scum players

IcyTea Is Toaster your only scum suspect so far? Do you have any townreads?

[juicebox]

LuckyOwl Oops, forgot to color my vote

[TricMagic]

I can answer the question of the badge seller. So long as I am alive new stock will be added each phase. I didn't expect everyone to instantlyget 100 pons though, otherwise I would have picked a different badge to sell. Specificly the No Bonk Badge which causes kills you do to fail.


Also, you turned onto me pretty quickly Toony, have something to say besides that? I know my powers, and right now I have one that will screw me over to protect another from all actions through interception. Whoever has the right hat however will know to give it to me to stop that, but I'm not telling which one. Unless mafia has it, in which case I'm only getting it over their dead body.

[Luckyowl]

Juicebox: I understand my playstyle is weird. But you really have to trust me("he said trust me!, he's scum!). I got some townsread on a few. But, I'm not really good at the whole argument and debating. What I'm really looking forward is catching the scum through mechanics than words. And looking at my roles I'm confidence on catching the Mafia next night.  I just need to find my fellow townies so we can work together.  Right now, I'm extending my trust on Nirur Torir, and ToonyMan. I still have a day action and hopefully out of the three that I trust will make use of my day action. If I'm to die right here.