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[Caz]

How do we win if nobody dies?

Dunno yet. This has been billed as a game where you have to 'figure out how to win', but we're all accepting that we got told how to win already in our role PM?

And the alternative? That we ignore our role PMs?

Or work actively against them. Didn't you hear the guy laughing on the phone?

[Shakerag]

chugga chugga choo choo 
heydude6

I can ride this train.

[4maskwolf]

How do we win if nobody dies?

Dunno yet. This has been billed as a game where you have to 'figure out how to win', but we're all accepting that we got told how to win already in our role PM?

And the alternative? That we ignore our role PMs?

Or work actively against them. Didn't you hear the guy laughing on the phone?

I did, yes.  But considering the context, I'd say it's more likely related to the prank of eleven exterminators in one game than us having straight up false wincons.

[webadict]

How do we win if nobody dies?

Dunno yet. This has been billed as a game where you have to 'figure out how to win', but we're all accepting that we got told how to win already in our role PM?

And the alternative? That we ignore our role PMs?

Or work actively against them. Didn't you hear the guy laughing on the phone?

I did, yes.  But considering the context, I'd say it's more likely related to the prank of eleven exterminators in one game than us having straight up false wincons.

That was also my takeaway.

If we subscribe to nihilism and assume that our role PMs are wrong, then we might as well not accept that we're in a game, and that there aren't any concept off Days or Nights, and that there's nothing stopping me from using the Plasma Bomb I have right now.

I use the Plasma Bomb on everyone.

See, but the game has rules. We're in normal rules. The game is a normal game. The issue isn't the game. It's that the wincon for everyone is the same, and the only way everyone wins is by everyone dying.

That's the bastardry. The bastardry is that there's no bastardry. A bastard mod would tell you the game is a bastard game and then only lie about opening post.

Man, I bet if you just ask:

Hey Meph, are there three Doppelgangers on the ship?

I bet the bastard will just be like, "lol, fuck no." Because that's what bastard mods do. They just fuck with you in the open. But, if you send everyone a PM that says your wincon is this, and then the wincon is really the exact opposite or something non-intuitive, then it stops being a bastard game. It becomes Moon Logic. At that point, we should simply do whatever the fuck we want, and then organize a campaign for Ship Mayor, because Exterminators.

Therefore, it's backwards logic to think everything is a lie. You should start off on the assumption that the things that are lies are the things that make sense to be lies. Your role PMs? Those aren't lies. The opening post? Definitely a lie. Because if your role PM lies, then you can't do anything. And if the opening post is true then you still need to kill people.

[Mephansteras]

Hey Meph, are there three Doppelgangers on the ship?

The station alarm system has stated that three doppelganger pods were found in the cargo holds.

[heydude6]

Maybe our win-con is hidden in the dop’s role PM. Maybe it’s something like:

Win Condition: You win when all other exterminators are dead. They win when all of you are dead


Anyway, that’s just a thought. Right now, I want to talk discuss the matter of obtaining more information. Right now I’ve got 2 theories.

Theory 1: More information will be obtained when the day passes

Theory 2: More information will be obtained when someone dies

Of the two, I think theory 2 is more likely unfortunately. Though I’ve been advocating for the pacifist approach for a while now, it’s becoming more clear that it probably isn’t going to work out and I don’t think Meph was expecting it to work out either.

chugga chugga choo choo 
heydude6

I can ride this train.

If we’re going to kill people though, I don’t think it should be me. I’ve been a very active player so far and one of the only people thinking of solutions besides mass suicide. You may take that as a mark against me, but Tric also feels this way and he hasn’t said as much to back it up as I have.

Anyway, I want to move this game forward a little so let me just do something.

[heydude6]

Never mind. It’s a stupid idea.

[heydude6]

Not that stupid if omnicide is the win-con though.

[juicebox]

Care to explain what it is you want to do?

[Jim Groovester]

4maskwolf and webadict, do you think there are dopps in this game? I don't care if you think the question is irrelevant.

Meph, is it possible for players to have hidden win conditions?

I expect to be equivocated to about this. If Meph confirms with a hard no that there are no hidden win conditions then the mass suicide strategy is the most logical course of action. But at that point we're not even playing a game anymore since it would be a trivial exercise to set up a night plan that ended up with all of us dying.

[Mephansteras]

Meph, is it possible for players to have hidden win conditions?

All players current win conditions are accurately reflected in their Role PM.

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf and webadict, do you think there are dopps in this game? I don't care if you think the question is irrelevant.

Meph, is it possible for players to have hidden win conditions?

I expect to be equivocated to about this. If Meph confirms with a hard no that there are no hidden win conditions then the mass suicide strategy is the most logical course of action. But at that point we're not even playing a game anymore since it would be a trivial exercise to set up a night plan that ended up with all of us dying.

I think that of all the possible places we could have been lied to, the presence of dopps is the most likely.  For one, their presence is only attested to in the flavor of the game, there is no mechanical attestation of their presence like there is for an eleven exterminator setup.  Secondly, the setup is just... weird if you allow for the presence of dopps.  If there's a true three-dopp team hidden among us, using typical dopp roles, and those of us who took Intel were mechanically lied to, there's basically nothing any individual team (counting each exterminator as their own individual team) could really do to influence the outcome with that many kills flying around in every direction.  If the setup violates the typical paranormal rules and permits the presence of dopp exterminators, then the game is wildly unbalanced in favor of the dopp team, who are not facing a "town" of exterminators but eight individual serial killers whose only chance to win, under those game circumstances, is to avoid working together in hopes of being the last one standing, as any plan made by the non-scum players can be easily subverted by a coordinated scumteam.  As Tricmagic has said repeatedly, a team of dopp exterminators could easily make six kills by the end of N1 (I'm not sure if you can use a regular assassin bot and a regular exterminator nightkill on the same night) and with only eight players opposing them... not great odds.  Thirdly, there's significant precedent for bastard paranormals not having a traditional Paranormal-style scumteam: in BP1 the "scumteam" was a red herring that the town was supposed to realize when the real scum killed, only for the real scum to avoid killing long enough that the town never learned the trick of the game, and in BP2 the dopps were part of the town trying to escape with the humans and lacked any kind of killing ability.

So no, I do not believe there are dopps in this game, or if there are, I don't think they're anything close to a traditional scumteam.

[Jim Groovester]

Meph, is it possible for players to have hidden win conditions?

All players current win conditions are accurately reflected in their Role PM.

This is not quite the answer I was expecting. "Current" makes me a little paranoid like the win conditions could change.

But if my current win condition is accurate then I have to play to that.

Mass suicide it is.

[Jim Groovester]

Unvote webadict since I wouldn't want to deny him the opportunity to shoot me with a plasma bomb and I wouldn't want to deny myself the opportunity of causing as much violence as possible with it.

[juicebox]

With the information that we have right now, the mass suicide option is the best plan that we have.

I still feel like there is something else going on, but I guess we'll find out if that's the case after we're all dead.