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Author Topic: The Cataclysm games thread.  (Read 113942 times)

taat

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1035 on: March 21, 2023, 01:51:14 pm »

the most obvious way to fix the small lens issue is probably with overhauling the disassembly system. You could very straightforwardly get them via break a robot -> disassemble for sensor array -> disassemble for small & normal high-quality lens

- since robots/turrets are pretty common

But currently you can't do that unless you have the stupid high electronics skill needed to disassemble the whole robot and put it back together again, or you'll destroy all the parts when trying to disassemble.

-- but overhauling the disassembly system is a lot of work, which is why it hasn't gotten done yet
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KittyTac

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1036 on: March 21, 2023, 10:30:33 pm »

Adding recipes is easy, changing the underlying mechanics is hard. Like with the robot thing, it would require making the robots easily craftable which is a no-no. idk if they're still craftable.

I'd comment on how I never had to craft a scope but it's a playstyle thing so meh. But another problem is that microscopes are rarer than they should be. Only 10% chance in a school according to https://nornagon.github.io/cdda-guide/#/item/microscope.
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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1037 on: March 22, 2023, 03:19:43 am »

If we're talking realism the lenses from a microscope wouldn't really work for a scope, you'd be better off taping a telescope to a rifle.


Probably 90% of the recipes in DDA are completely unrealistic, like yeah make a pipe rifle out of a pipe, 2 pieces of scrap metal and a plank of wood, yup seems doable, especially with just a screwdriver and a hacksaw.
You say that but it really isn't that far from what you'd really need to make one, if anyone wants I could layout a realistic recipe for a pipe rifle based off a military book I have.
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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1038 on: March 22, 2023, 03:30:38 am »

That too. A microscope isn't really made for looking at far-away things lmao. And makeshift guns aren't that hard to make IRL, the issue is that they are inaccurate (which the game models) and that they are unsafe (which it doesn't, yet?). And in-game the issue with making them is that you will probably find a real gun before getting the skills to make one, because it's set in America. If there was an European total conversion mod, makeshift guns would be more than a gimmick. But alas.
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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1039 on: March 22, 2023, 03:38:35 am »

The ones in that book I mentioned are probably relatively safe to use but the accuracy is probably pretty shit unless you use it point blank.
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Sharp

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1040 on: March 22, 2023, 11:47:18 am »

Or you can just go with BN instead. Progress is slower but gameplay and game balance tends to take priority for us. My approach in particular leans toward using realistic logic as a baseline, especially if I need numbers to help scale things, then fudging and adjusting to suit gameplay.

I play both BN and DDA, DDA especially because as mentioned with the awesome Sky Islands mod. I definitely prefer BN for general use, although tbh I still feel it misses some of that danger from original Cataclysm, like you clear an area in BN or DDA and it's pretty much safe forever, although I guess DDA

If we're talking realism the lenses from a microscope wouldn't really work for a scope, you'd be better off taping a telescope to a rifle.

Probably 90% of the recipes in DDA are completely unrealistic, like yeah make a pipe rifle out of a pipe, 2 pieces of scrap metal and a plank of wood, yup seems doable, especially with just a screwdriver and a hacksaw.
You say that but it really isn't that far from what you'd really need to make one, if anyone wants I could layout a realistic recipe for a pipe rifle based off a military book I have.

I actually said that originally in my post regarding microscopes but did a bit of sleuthing and it really just depends on the lenses you are using, for any telescope to work you need a convex and a concave lens (of which there will be one of each in a microscope, but also in a camera lens) so you could probably use one of the lenses in the microscope, but also in that regard you would have a small and large lens in a camera that you can also just use anyway so still pointless to use the microscope one, but technically you could use a microscope lens (in addition to a larger lens) to create a scope, I think.

But in regards to the pipe rifle you would probably need a spring or something to strike the firing pin of the cartridge with enough force, but I think it's incredibly doubtful that you would be able to make it with just a screwdriver and hacksaw as per the recipe.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1041 on: March 22, 2023, 02:06:07 pm »

Adding recipes is easy, changing the underlying mechanics is hard. Like with the robot thing, it would require making the robots easily craftable which is a no-no. idk if they're still craftable.

Not really? You can have separate uncraft recipes for taking apart the robots instead of making the main recipe reversible. This is also done as a common way to change what tools are needed to take an item apart.

In addition, don't forget that there's a distinction between broken robots and inactive robots. The former are generic items that can't be used directly, are dropped by robots when destroyed, and generally NEED an uncraft recipe to get parts out of since the item itself isn't craftable. The latter is the item for the actual deployable robot, and is what you get if you either craft it yourself or deactivate a robot that's been made friendly via control laptop, scrambler gun, or whatever. In this case you'd want to make its recipe (if craftable) not count as reversible and define a separate uncraft recipe.

You can also go the route of setting the recipe diffculty fairly low and then making the booklearn levels higher, and optionally add the SECRET flag to make sure that starting the game with those easy low-level skills doesn't mean you already start off knowing that recipe (as normally starting skills can let you start off knowing otherwise booklearn-only recipes). If you still want it autolearn you can even explicitly define what levels it autolearns at, or make it so it requires levels in multiple skills and not just the primary skill. Since this is DDA we're talking about, you could even lock it behind certain proficiencies like a robotics proficiency or whatever, as you can optionally set a recipe's proficiency requirement to be a "hard" one where you outright can't attempt a recipe without already having said proficiency.

All of this is real no-brainer easy JSON stuff to be honest, so "removing lenses from all these easy uncrafts was the lazier option" doesn't even really work as an excuse. There were multiple solutions to this problem and they picked the one that's the most detrimental to players.

I play both BN and DDA, DDA especially because as mentioned with the awesome Sky Islands mod. I definitely prefer BN for general use, although tbh I still feel it misses some of that danger from original Cataclysm, like you clear an area in BN or DDA and it's pretty much safe forever, although I guess DDA

One thing that if I recall both BN and DDA are missing is the old 0.B and earlier era style of dyamic spawns. I vaguely recall that in the old days, there was the current wandering horde setting where zeds can unload themselves and teleport around, while there was ALSO an option to choose between static and dynamic spawns. Static worked like the basic monster spawns do now, everything the game intends to spawn on the map already exists, while dynamic would set aside some amount of those spawns to instead show up later. 90% certain this was different from current wander spawns behavior, which is more along the lines of talking the existing monsters already determined to be in a given area and saying "okay these can now offload and be converted into a horde that will load back in and appear somewhere if enough noise while they're made in the reality bubble"

In addition, both versions pushed a lot of the most well-known and infamous special zombies from the 0.B era into being later-game evolutions. You used to have more day-one special zombies. I especially remember day-one zombie masters being an immediate source of "oh shit" moments when they appeared. I also vaguely recall they were like 90% of the reason why mansions used to be just pure weaponized death back in the day.

But in regards to the pipe rifle you would probably need a spring or something to strike the firing pin of the cartridge with enough force, but I think it's incredibly doubtful that you would be able to make it with just a screwdriver and hacksaw as per the recipe.

If we're talking realism about pipe rifles, they're most likely modeled after slam-fire shotguns. Those are basically just a pipe the right diameter to hold a shotshell, a pipe whose interior diameter will let the first pipe fit into it, and a nail or such set in place so pumping the two together makes the shell contact the pin. Caveat of course is if you went full realism you'd need to match the size of the pipe to the caliber used, and 12 gauge is the only one that's dead simple to match a fitting pipe to since 3/4 inch works about right for it.
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KittyTac

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1042 on: March 22, 2023, 07:57:09 pm »

I could probably PR robots giving lenses. But then again, are robots really easier to find than microscopes? In fact you're most likely to find them in the same place (a lab). I dunno if it's necessary. Honestly this conversation made me think optics crafting needs a full rework considering everything.
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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1043 on: March 23, 2023, 02:47:23 am »

But in regards to the pipe rifle you would probably need a spring or something to strike the firing pin of the cartridge with enough force, but I think it's incredibly doubtful that you would be able to make it with just a screwdriver and hacksaw as per the recipe.

If we're talking realism about pipe rifles, they're most likely modeled after slam-fire shotguns. Those are basically just a pipe the right diameter to hold a shotshell, a pipe whose interior diameter will let the first pipe fit into it, and a nail or such set in place so pumping the two together makes the shell contact the pin. Caveat of course is if you went full realism you'd need to match the size of the pipe to the caliber used, and 12 gauge is the only one that's dead simple to match a fitting pipe to since 3/4 inch works about right for it.
Not 100% sure about that since they seem to be loosely based off the ones in this military book I have, since they're have stocks and what appears to be rudimentary hammers, unless the recipe change since I last looked.


You know what I'm just gonna layout what the book said, it might be more involved than a slam fire but it'd probably hold up better to repeated use and be more accurate.

Tools:
Wood saw (Shapes the stalk)
Hand drill or power drill (Drilling through the plug for the firing pin)
Hammer (Shapes the hammer)

Materials:
Plank
Pipe
1 Pipe fitting set (You only need two a sleeve and a plug)
3 Nails (For the firing pin, holding on the hammer, and trigger)
Glue (To attach the barrel)
Cloth (Making the barrel hold better)
1 Scrap metal (This becomes the hammer)
Spring or strong elastic
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Sharp

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1044 on: March 23, 2023, 01:20:17 pm »

One thing that if I recall both BN and DDA are missing is the old 0.B and earlier era style of dyamic spawns. I vaguely recall that in the old days, there was the current wandering horde setting where zeds can unload themselves and teleport around, while there was ALSO an option to choose between static and dynamic spawns. Static worked like the basic monster spawns do now, everything the game intends to spawn on the map already exists, while dynamic would set aside some amount of those spawns to instead show up later. 90% certain this was different from current wander spawns behavior, which is more along the lines of talking the existing monsters already determined to be in a given area and saying "okay these can now offload and be converted into a horde that will load back in and appear somewhere if enough noise while they're made in the reality bubble"

In addition, both versions pushed a lot of the most well-known and infamous special zombies from the 0.B era into being later-game evolutions. You used to have more day-one special zombies. I especially remember day-one zombie masters being an immediate source of "oh shit" moments when they appeared. I also vaguely recall they were like 90% of the reason why mansions used to be just pure weaponized death back in the day.

I think back before then as well in more Whales time it was basically harder zombies would keep spawning later and would essentially come in waves, generally it was fight some zombies and then once they are dead you have some time to loot and then a new wave gets spawned in after some time, the more noise you make the less time it is for the new wave. You could eventually de-populate an area of zombies but it would be after days, unless you are constantly making noise. And also when Flaming Eyes would just melt your walls...

Like the faction camps in BN and DDA now have all this stuff about NPCs guarding areas and building up trenches but there doesn't seem to ever be anything that comes to attack, maybe that is something planned in the future like raids? Or wandering hordes which actually wander.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 01:22:20 pm by Sharp »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1045 on: March 23, 2023, 02:12:29 pm »

Yeah, some sort of staggered spawn behavior like that, I forget exactly how it works. I kinda came along in the latter half or so of when that was a thing, it seems.
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taat

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1046 on: March 24, 2023, 09:14:02 am »

I could probably PR robots giving lenses. But then again, are robots really easier to find than microscopes? In fact you're most likely to find them in the same place (a lab). I dunno if it's necessary. Honestly this conversation made me think optics crafting needs a full rework considering everything.
There's 2 pretty common robots outside labs: riot control platforms at roadblocks have a sensor array, and you can get eyebots to spawn anywhere you can start an alarm by breaking doors/windows
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KittyTac

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1047 on: March 24, 2023, 11:10:38 am »

I could probably PR robots giving lenses. But then again, are robots really easier to find than microscopes? In fact you're most likely to find them in the same place (a lab). I dunno if it's necessary. Honestly this conversation made me think optics crafting needs a full rework considering everything.
There's 2 pretty common robots outside labs: riot control platforms at roadblocks have a sensor array, and you can get eyebots to spawn anywhere you can start an alarm by breaking doors/windows
I forgot those give sensor arrays, d'oh.
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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1048 on: March 24, 2023, 01:37:53 pm »

I could probably PR robots giving lenses. But then again, are robots really easier to find than microscopes? In fact you're most likely to find them in the same place (a lab). I dunno if it's necessary. Honestly this conversation made me think optics crafting needs a full rework considering everything.

If you want to go for the "realism" route though, then honestly a camera lens is enough for a makeshift scope. You can basically make the camera and pro camera disassembly give the high quality lens and high quality small lens.
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King Zultan

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #1049 on: March 25, 2023, 03:25:59 am »

Oh thank god I've finally finished this damned building, I think I might skip adding vehicles because that seems like it's own unique hell. Now all that's left is to fix the critters.


Also why are there four ways to spawn items in mapgen each with their own rules, those being: items, item, place_loot, and place_items.
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