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[KittyTac]

I'm not taking it personally, just saying that you are wrong. Also I never heard of anyone actually using the lobotomizer either, it was too heavy and had a shit to-hit. Like the chainsaw lajatang, I don't miss it, and anything else that was added in the 10-years-vintage "just throw random things in" era. And besides more craftable weapons are getting added, like sheet metal axes and soon huge wooden hammers.

Proficiencies are fine, they discourage crafting everything and encourage scavenging for things, thus putting the player in more danger. It's a soft wall. I like them, nobody's forcing you to craft those items instead of going out and looting. And also blacksmithing is hard, who knew. If you still want to sit at home for 2 weeks while you craft everything and power through profs, sure. But you could get all you want faster by, you know, playing the game. Could probably be structured better but the idea of slowing down crafting is fine.

[King Zultan]

just saying that you are wrong.

That's just like, your opinion, man.


I've noticed that you guys are really quick to just trash items and creatures rather than try to fix them now days, I mean the guy in the lobotomizer PR linked basically said he doesn't give enough of a shit to try to make it better rather than delete it.



Also I still don't get how to get most of the proficiencies, seems like no matter what I do to some I can't increase them.

[KittyTac]

just saying that you are wrong.

That's just like, your opinion, man.


I've noticed that you guys are really quick to just trash items and creatures rather than try to fix them now days, I mean the guy in the lobotomizer PR linked basically said he doesn't give enough of a shit to try to make it better rather than delete it.



Also I still don't get how to get most of the proficiencies, seems like no matter what I do to some I can't increase them.

I meant that he was wrong that the CDDA devs don't care at all about gameplay. If they didn't we'd have shitting mechanics and personal hygiene already.

How would you propose making it better? It's not a good design, there's a reason combination tools are unwieldy and uncommon IRL.

As for proficiencies, just craft things with that proficiency once you're already not earning skills from it. Or disable the skill first.

[Random_Dragon]

Yeah, funny thing about that, there actually was a stab at hygiene not that long ago: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/48749

It was closed primarily for being not complex enough.

[KittyTac]

Yeah, funny thing about that, there actually was a stab at hygiene not that long ago: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/48749

It was closed primarily for being not complex enough.

Also it won't be implemented until we have daily chore automation. I'm fine with it being complex.

[Random_Dragon]

So just to make things clear, the objective aspects of my position here are:
1. A large number of features specific to DDA greatly increase the amount of keypresses, time spent waiting for progression, and general overall increased investment of the actual player's time for the same net result as before. Proficiencies are a sterling example. The main thing they accomplish mechanically is increasing how much time the player spends sitting at an in-progress craft to make something.
2. The DDA devs' application of realism is inconsistent. This is pretty much universal, like it or not. Every game is going to have variation in what parts of it actually adhere to real-world logic.

The subjective aspect, meanwhile, is I personally believe these combine to make the gameplay of DDA worse than BN's. I can get that your subjective opinion on this is that this is actually a good thing for gameplay, but saying things like "you are wrong" outright is what makes it seem like you're taking this too personally.

[KittyTac]

Fair enough but I was just contesting your claim that the only realism they want is that which hinders the player. For example the amount of items in houses was drastically buffed long ago because in old Cataclysm they were empty as hell, which basically let the player have tons of canned food. Also like, the only reason they haven't implemented hygiene is that it would add keypresses for no gameplay effect. That's the justification I got from directly talking to them. At least proficiencies, again, give an incentive to not beeline crafting the best things immediately... which I'd argue was detrimental to gameplay, the "cut up some kevlar and then sit at home for 2 weeks crafting survivor armor" routine.

Edit: added a sentence I accidentally skipped

[King Zultan]

How would you propose making it better? It's not a good design, there's a reason combination tools are unwieldy and uncommon IRL.

Multi tools exist and the ones I've used to seem that unwieldy so they're not all crap.

Anyway my thought would be to make it more like the older types of entrenching tools but with a pipe for a handle with a prybar end and a heavier sheet metal for thee head that has sharpened sides. I mean if my grandpa can kill Nazis with a regular entrenching tool I'd assume a heavier duty one would be better at it. But I'm not convinced it'd work any better for chopping trees better than a regular shovel wold.

Also I'm not 100% sure what the book said anymore as it's been a while since I read it.

[KittyTac]

How would you propose making it better? It's not a good design, there's a reason combination tools are unwieldy and uncommon IRL.

Multi tools exist and the ones I've used to seem that unwieldy so they're not all crap.

Anyway my thought would be to make it more like the older types of entrenching tools but with a pipe for a handle with a prybar end and a heavier sheet metal for thee head that has sharpened sides. I mean if my grandpa can kill Nazis with a regular entrenching tool I'd assume a heavier duty one would be better at it. But I'm not convinced it'd work any better for chopping trees better than a regular shovel wold.

Also I'm not 100% sure what the book said anymore as it's been a while since I read it.

You don't usually fight with a multitool so that's not relevant.

The problem with your idea is that a shovel head design isn't the same as an axe design. It's thick and narrow in the wrong places to be an effective weapon, and is usually heavy.

I guess I could make a reworked lobotomizer that's just a worse shovel and a worse battleaxe, like it would be IRL. And not collapsible because collapsible handles make weapons either too flimsy or too heavy. Could call it a combat shovel. It'd probably get accepted, but there really isn't a good niche for this weapon as the stuff you need to dig is usually far from zombies. But I'm busy coding (or rather jsoning) mutation stuff rn.

[King Zultan]

Probably better to skip the whole axe thing and just have it as a heavier entrenching tool with cutting edges on the side, combat shovel name seems like a good fit. And I see no reason having it be a shittier shovel because it's heavy duty or why it couldn't fold I mean I have several entrenching tools and the folding mechanism seems to be one of the sturdiest bits, but maybe it's because I have old ones.


Also from what I remember the lobotomizer as described in the book really didn't sound like the super weapon they wanted it to be I mean it was still just a weird short shovel, but then again they suddenly went from the brink of death to defeating all the zombies and retaking the planet. So who knows the story kind of went down hill towards the end anyway.

How would you propose making it better? It's not a good design, there's a reason combination tools are unwieldy and uncommon IRL.

Multi tools exist and the ones I've used to seem that unwieldy so they're not all crap.

You don't usually fight with a multitool so that's not relevant.

You never said fighting was important for that, I was just saying that a multi tool is a combination tool that works well and is common.

[KittyTac]

Basically, being light matters for a weapon, both IRL and in-game (did you notice how your stamina drains fast with a heavy weapon?). A folding mechanism needs to be heavy compared to a solid shaft to be sturdy, that's basic engineering. It would probably be a worse shovel because the blade shape is different (would probably be too thick on one end and too narrow on the other), though on a second thought it probably wouldn't be enough of a difference to be a lower digging quality considering the jump from a digging stick to a wooden shovel so I concede that. I'll just PR it someday but definitely this experimental cycle. Thanks man.

[Blogaugis]

Proficiencies are fine, they discourage crafting everything and encourage scavenging for things, thus putting the player in more danger. It's a soft wall. I like them, nobody's forcing you to craft those items instead of going out and looting. And also blacksmithing is hard, who knew. If you still want to sit at home for 2 weeks while you craft everything and power through profs, sure. But you could get all you want faster by, you know, playing the game. Could probably be structured better but the idea of slowing down crafting is fine.

And that discouraging from crafting can be considered a step in the wrong direction.
Obviously, it is unlikelly that the player with his/her NPC allies would be able to restart the chain of mass-production that could be possible in today's world factories, but at least they should be able to satisfy the needs of their community and perhaps a bit more.
Also, sandbox-like games can have certain charms of their own. Slowly rebuilding the world using your own skills (add in building robot companions, if not advanced biological clones, with your own made cloning vats to create NPC copies of yourself). Why this sort of approach is not considered "playing the game"? Why direct violence is the only "meta" approach?

For example the amount of items in houses was drastically buffed long ago because in old Cataclysm they were empty as hell, which basically let the player have tons of canned food. Also like, the only reason they haven't implemented hygiene is that it would add keypresses for no gameplay effect. That's the justification I got from directly talking to them. At least proficiencies, again, give an incentive to not beeline crafting the best things immediately... which I'd argue was detrimental to gameplay, the "cut up some kevlar and then sit at home for 2 weeks crafting survivor armor" routine.

You could already set the amount of items that spawn before in the settings, even if it is a rather inelegant solution (it affects all items, rather than letting the player choose the frequency of certain items spawning).
I expect that if DDA would implement hygiene, it would be similar oddity, like exodites (who change the lore, and basically lock (existing, no less, rather than new and experimental ones) CBMs behind a new, rather undeveloped, faction). It would be like... playing sims at this point - you control the sim when he/she should go to the toilet...
Meanwhile, if BN would try to implement hygiene, I at least expect some interesting crafting ingridients related to fertilizer, mutagens, chemicals, maybe even explosives, should the player gets more advanced tools to purify them.
Last note on proficiencies - seems they are here to counter a 'metagaming' strategy, that was prevalent in earlier versions of DDA. And at this point my question is: Do the devs of DDA have 1 vision regarding how a player should play their game? Or are they pretty lenient on how should one want to play? So far, proficiencies hint at the former, rather than the latter.

[KittyTac]

1. And you can satisfy the needs of your community, proficiencies are not stopping you from doing that. And sitting and crafting plate/survivor armor without fighting anything before is just boring to me. Maybe it's not boring to you but to me it's lame gameplay. Not in my interest to just shuffle things around at base and then waiting for a progress bar to fill up. There's a lot of that right now of course but that doesn't mean I want even more.
2. You're wrong on the first point, again they said it will be automated when implemented (and there's an explicit moratorium on "press S to shit" mechanics). And actually human waste will only be added (in an abstracted way) when faction camps are more developed wrt that so that you can indeed make things out of it. But a lone survivor won't "make" enough to be worth implementing anyways. And yes there's an intended playstyle, sort of. But again I am fine with it. I don't think it should be a pure sandbox game, if I wanted that I'd go fire up modded Minecraft.

Like your whole argument is pretty subjective and I respect it, but I feel we just have a fundamental difference in what we want out of Cataclysm. And that's fine, you have your fork for that sort of thing. I just want you guys to understand where I am coming from.

[EuchreJack]

Alright folks, let's NOT get another CDDA thread locked. 

Overall, I think the mainline simulation caters to players who are already highly experienced with the game and thus need more challenges. It's a common fault with video games in general.

I do like it, however, because it generally has new stuff, even if it also takes stuff away. It's valuable.

As for an actual game that I can play and win, CDDA: BN is the way. It generally takes the best of the main and makes an actual game with it.

They're co-existent, not competitive branches.

As for showering/hygiene in CDDA: I am afraid that I have already thought about it. I would be interested in playing through that feature for a bit, but probably prefer it didn't exist in most of my playthroughs.

[KittyTac]

I'm aware of the track record with CDDA threads. That's why I argue civilly and in good faith. It's really just best for both communities if we, as Jack said, coexist and stop taking pot shots at each other.