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Author Topic: The Cataclysm games thread.  (Read 113914 times)

IcyTea31

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2020, 06:38:25 am »

PTW.
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Fire and Glory

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2020, 10:56:06 am »

As i mentionned it's been a long time i haven't played CDDA, but now on my playthrough with BN i noticed it takes a long, long time for the time to actually move when i sleep or read a book.
That with even disabled the option mentionned in the BN page to get rid of the ressource hogging or slowdown that happens in CDDA.

That's super annoying considering how much nothing happens during those waiting time (and when something does it would interrupt you anyways).

When i was still playing CDDA i remember time moved faster during those sleep/read sequences (it started to become longer and longer with updates though).
Unless there's some options i didn't paid attention that make things slower, i hope there is going to be some optimisation there.

edit : started a new game on a new world (some random character and started in an empty cabin) and every turns, reading and sleeping were much faster.
Can't say how much monster there was, but probably less than in the other character run, though there weren't that much giant ants around the farm when i was trying to read and sleep in it, so no idea what could be responsible (unless the "bubble" exist for a huge distance, as there were a lot of zombies in the away military base).
Anyways it's very annoying.
The slow down seems heavily dependent on how close you are to the remains of civilization. Reading or sleeping in a city moves at a crawl whereas sleeping in a car in the middle of some open fields is a lot quicker. The fastest passage of time seems to come from sleeping underground with z-levels turned off, though.

CDDA definitely didn't used to be this slow, so that is pretty annoying.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 10:58:57 am by Fire and Glory »
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EuchreJack

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2020, 11:28:07 am »

I've been away for a while, tbh as gameplay started to get more complicated I started to throw in "easier" starts for myself (normally with a custom "cybernetic ubermensch" start).

What are the big differences between DDA and the bright nights fork?

Rough summary is here: https://github.com/cataclysmbnteam/Cataclysm-BN/wiki/Changes-so-far

It's likely missing lots of small quality of life and misc changes that're steadily accumulating.

Also, I'm wondering now if the old thread got locked by Toady, or if it was the OP...

EDIT: Hecc, Rob got the link first. :3

It was the OP.

Random_Dragon

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2020, 01:46:40 pm »

It was the OP.

Well that's...interesting. Don't know what to say about that.
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Salmeuk

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2020, 03:07:25 pm »

I've had issues with Cata for a while, since 0.C I feel the dev has gone down an irreversible path towards micromanagement hell, while eschewing meaningful changes to the gameplay. I decided to try my hand at the latest stable build, to see what's up, and to see if anything has changed.

1. Echoing the above sentiments, the game runs very slowly now - waiting or sleeping can take quite a while. 30 seconds staring at a clock does not make for compelling gameplay.

2. The game is still menu hell at it's core. A majority of my time is spent managing items. That's fine, it's a survival game, resource management and all that, but damn. It's kind of boring? I enjoy the exploration and fighting, but I dread finding a big pile of loot, because it means I get to spend 20 IRL minutes collecting, hauling, disassembling, and organizing all the junk. Even if you weren't playing like a packrat (which is sort of the only option, as literally everything you find has a likely use somewhere down the line), the bare minimum of survival still requires a fair amount of this micromanagement. And at that point, living in the wilderness, eating eggs and cooked meat, why not just play UnReal world instead lol?

3. Weird decisions made in the interest of precision and realism, at the expense of the player's experience. An example: a change to in-progress crafting jobs makes it so that if you are interrupted mid-craft, the half-finished object is spawned and placed in your hands or at your feet. That's fine because it means you save the work already performed, correct? WRONG it means that when your makeshift fire keeps going out, you end up with things like PARTIALLY FINISHED BOILED WATER (59%) in your inventory. This not only interrupts the flow of crafting, forcing players to used 8 different keypresses to freakin' boil water, it also doesn't make any realistic sense that you can carry this kind of thing around with you, outside of a container. .

4. Recovery rates are still untenable. My leg was bit in the first day, as is bound to happen, and it's been a week and it's still at 2 || of health in the yellow. I'm probably just not understanding yet another hidden mechanic, but considering I've been fully-satiated and resting every night for that entire in-game week, it just seems unfun. Realistic time frames are not necessary for an enjoyable apocalypse simulator.

What is this game even about anymore? Combat seems like it flips from 'get hit once and you're dead' to 'easily kill everything because I spent an hour grinding skill'. Survival is trivial, the only difficult part is convincing yourself it's worth the pain of micromanagement. The most compelling part of the game, the crafting and the building, feels like it only exists in order to save yourself from future micromanagement. Without a compelling gameplay loop, C:DDA falls into the territory of "Why am I even playing this game?" far too quickly. Roleplay can mitigate this somewhat, but the game itself fights against roleplay by forcing players to use meta-game techniques to survive the basics.

There's something really compelling about this game's core, and I think that's why discussion about this game often gets heated (ignoring the poor community relations handling of the lead devs . .). People want to play the C:DDA they read about in anecdotes, and not the bits-and-pieces survivalist simulator where it can take 10 key presses to boil a cup of water.
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Damiac

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2020, 03:25:39 pm »

It was the OP.

Well that's...interesting. Don't know what to say about that.
I mean, it was kinda obvious from his last few posts that he was sick of it, and if toady locks a thread he usually gives a warning first, or at least a post explaining why it was locked.

Kinda sucks, it was a long thread, but hey, at least dev drama won't lead to the OP locking this thread, right?

Also... not to be a jerk but... could someone tell me what the new proficiency system is supposed to do to improve the game? Do most people find the way skills level to be "broken"?

Is it like dungeon crawl stone soup, where the devs just are surrounded by extremely veteran players who find the game way too easy because they know every trick?

Salmeuk, your complaints about cdda are... common.  Its unfortunate that so much dev work goes into those... precision and realism changes, as you put it, and not into finishing existing features, or fixing bugs, or at the very least, optimizing the game enough to not be too much slower after the changes.

Hell, maybe we can have a bay12 branch, maybe DF players are just weirdos and want different things than others from this game.

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Egan_BW

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2020, 03:51:33 pm »

I feel like if B12 had a big number of people willing and able to develop a branch we'd probably already have one, but hey I might be wrong.
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EuchreJack

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2020, 08:00:43 pm »

An example: a change to in-progress crafting jobs makes it so that if you are interrupted mid-craft, the half-finished object is spawned and placed in your hands or at your feet. That's fine because it means you save the work already performed, correct? WRONG it means that when your makeshift fire keeps going out, you end up with things like PARTIALLY FINISHED BOILED WATER (59%) in your inventory. This not only interrupts the flow of crafting, forcing players to used 8 different keypresses to freakin' boil water, it also doesn't make any realistic sense that you can carry this kind of thing around with you, outside of a container. .

Just wanted to point out that under the old system, you would lose the 59% complete water if your task was interrupted.  It was not like URW, where the task would actually complete.  So it was an improvement, except that you now have a ton of Partially Completed Waters that are this unrealistic thing that you can't do anything with except finish the task.  URW is by far the better survival simulator, but its not set in the modern-future world.

Your recovery rate issue is probably a bug.  2 weeks should be enough to go from broken to mostly restored.  Wound management has been buggy.  There was a bug where if your limbs got wet, they'd get frostbite and constantly break.

Also... not to be a jerk but... could someone tell me what the new proficiency system is supposed to do to improve the game?
I doubt there is anyone that can explain that on these forums.

Random_Dragon

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2020, 10:06:26 pm »

I mean, it was kinda obvious from his last few posts that he was sick of it, and if toady locks a thread he usually gives a warning first, or at least a post explaining why it was locked.

Kinda sucks, it was a long thread, but hey, at least dev drama won't lead to the OP locking this thread, right?

Also... not to be a jerk but... could someone tell me what the new proficiency system is supposed to do to improve the game? Do most people find the way skills level to be "broken"?

Can't help but get a "taking my ball and going home" vibe from that.

As for proficiencies...we asked Erk, never got an answer. I conjectured that it does have uses if fully-fleshed out, namely that there's stuff the devs have wanted to be craftable but don't think would be covered by the game's basic skills alone, so there's that I guess.

I'd still like to be able to buy proficiencies in chargen, and even better it'd be neat if a recipe could be flagged so that starting with the right proficiency autolearns that recipe, even if it's flagged [SECRET] (allowing for stuff like mutagenic lab techs starting off knowing the basics of how to make mutagen, for example).
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George_Chickens

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2020, 11:49:01 pm »

I feel like if B12 had a big number of people willing and able to develop a branch we'd probably already have one, but hey I might be wrong.
That's what DDA was. I checked out after the new community became increasingly hostile to the old, Whalesdev community a year or so into its development.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 11:52:35 pm by George_Chickens »
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Egan_BW

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2020, 11:52:08 pm »

And that ain't what it is now, is it? As I understand it, none of the founders of DDA are even still here.
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Fire and Glory

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2020, 02:36:11 am »

4. Recovery rates are still untenable. My leg was bit in the first day, as is bound to happen, and it's been a week and it's still at 2 || of health in the yellow. I'm probably just not understanding yet another hidden mechanic, but considering I've been fully-satiated and resting every night for that entire in-game week, it just seems unfun. Realistic time frames are not necessary for an enjoyable apocalypse simulator.
I'm not concrete on this but I'm fairly sure bandaging and disinfecting wounds are now required for passive healing to be effective. Replacing the previous function of directly healing HP on use that bandages held. Both items seem to be more common nowadays, at least.
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King Zultan

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2020, 05:30:01 am »

And that ain't what it is now, is it? As I understand it, none of the founders of DDA are even still here.
As far as I'm aware all the old guys ether abandoned the project long ago or got chased off by Kevin and his lot.
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Damiac

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2020, 08:23:12 am »

I feel like if B12 had a big number of people willing and able to develop a branch we'd probably already have one, but hey I might be wrong.
That's what DDA was. I checked out after the new community became increasingly hostile to the old, Whalesdev community a year or so into its development.
I know a lot of people did the same, you'd hear little whispers about it every so often, someone would code up a bunch of stuff and then get vetoed without explanation.
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IonMatrix

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Re: The Cataclysm games thread.
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2020, 09:31:12 am »

So, I dont really know the history behindCDDA. Any good person willing to explain it for me?

A good place to start would be who is Kevin and what did he do.
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