Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Fikilili]

I kinda thought that animal people could be a minority among humans, in the same way that in De Cape et de Crocs has talking walking animals all over, but they're extremely rare and only serve as allegories of character types. The wolf Don Lope being fierce and courgaeous in battle while being a charming seducter, and the fox Maupertuis being a slick individual who likes comedy and various arts (notably that of thievery).
Or maybe we could for something similar to Redwall where multiple animal-men join together to form one and only civilization. Like a civ of crocodilians, birds, fishes, reptiles, etc.
Or even better, let's take this to new heights and go full Indian/Egyptian Mythos mode and make some animal people demi-gods like Elephantmen and Chacalmen.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I can really be honest with you, I'm not too much of a fan of animal-people. If I could mod anything, I would probably do something like a random civ generator that basically creates random profiles of people. Something like "Elk-people with long claws, four arms and a reptile-ish tail who's life depend on 4 crystals scattered around their kingdom." or "Tall Horned-men with glowing eyes and healing hair that grows greatly every day". And if I can be honest, humans are quite boring.

[Golbolco]

Personally, I don't support the notion that procedural generation can replace every type of civilization that could be added, because even if procedurally generated civs took advantage of all the different mechanics and tags available to them that still leaves the people preferring less proc-gen when they make a world without bigger variety in the civs available to them.

Humans, elves, goblins, and kobolds all need polishing, and I think that needs to happen before new civilizations are added.

Humans and dwarves are too similar. For the most part, everything dwarves do in terms of crafts is done by humans in real life. Their living styles are only slightly different since dwarves have cave adaptation, but cave adaptation is not yet a desirable state and thus fortress builders tend to find ways to prevent it, in turn making dwarven lifestyle more similar to human lifestyle. I think that expanding upon light, indoors vs outdoors, and ecological differences will serve to make humans and dwarves different. I also think that hill dwarves vs deep dwarves might not be relevant if hill dwarves are just smaller humans.

I think that elves show the most promise in their differences from dwarves, they just need the in-game mechanics to show it. Between cannibalism, the growing of trees, and the connection to nature, elves seem to be pretty well-developed.

Goblins basically only exist for warfare, and kobolds as a minor annoyance. One problem I foresee is that goblins sort of exist as a vestigial remnant of when the game was more of a tower defense game; I don't know if the lore was supposed to be that goblins are immortal creatures that don't eat, but I think that giving them a role in the world beyond serving as an enemy to the dwarves is a good idea. I just don't have any ideas for how to do it. On that same token: I get why Toady doesn't want orcs in the game, but I think that more races that start out in world gen with conflicts against the elf-dwarf-human alliances would serve to add challenge to the game and an intermediary threat between goblins and semi-megabeasts.

As for kobolds: I personally like the idea that kobolds could form a squatter civilization on top of a site and basically parasitize the dominant civilization there. That kind of interaction with a civilization could range from kobolds acting as innocuous house spirits to full-on clashes. Couple this with a nomadic element and things get interesting.

[Maximum Spin]

Personally, I don't support the notion that procedural generation can replace every type of civilization that could be added, because even if procedurally generated civs took advantage of all the different mechanics and tags available to them that still leaves the people preferring less proc-gen when they make a world without bigger variety in the civs available to them.

I mean, sure, but...those people are looking in the wrong place. While there is, generally, an attempt to cater to them too, Dwarf Fortress as a project is all about procgen.

[Nordlicht]

Or even better, let's take this to new heights and go full Indian/Egyptian Mythos mode and make some animal people demi-gods like Elephantmen and Chacalmen.

On rare occasions human and dwarven gods can take the form of animals.

[Maximum Spin]

On rare occasions human and dwarven gods can take the form of animals.

And (I am suggesting that they should, to be clear) mate with either humanoids or, if they feel like it, other animals.

[Eric Blank]

I totally agree not everything should be procgen all the time, but I like procgen's ability to take otherwise identical civs and make them less similar, thereby making games less monotonous.

More kobolds and koboldly activity does sound cool, that's a good idea. There was another suggestion thread of making them or some other race take away your refuse and stuff. Maybe they as "house spirits" could perform these tasks. They do this in return for protection and food. They do interpretive dances/sign language and otherwise babble and scream in terror. And some kobolds survive by bringing valuables to bandits in return for food and protection from them (the bandits use coersion) and their protection from "law" and beasties. Unemployed kobold society revolves around stealing what they need of course.

That would make kobolds a lot more interesting, but still doesn't develop their own society greatly, just how they interact with others. They could be the ones that tame and trade critters to other civs, since they tame lots of poisonous creatures themselves. Kobolds could become a "taming/domesticating" influencer, using their tiny, non-threstening charm to win over wild beasts they use as mounts and train to hunt food for them. They could make simple bone and leather crafts, a few stone trinkets, making leather and bone tents for their non-cave camping needs.

Elves of course represent the opposition to dwarven industriousness and expansion. Dwarves are like the high tech counterpart to humans, with stricter laws and more structured society. Goblins are just violent evil devil worshippers/workers, literally what spawns from the power of demons that are bound to the mortal world, to act as their slaves. Their not eating and being immortal was important to Toady's vision of them as this sort of race of semi-undead/devilspawn iirc. But they could be generic reincarnated souls too, like whenever the mythos supports a race of reincarnated beings or a deity of rebirth. They could build societies around monolithic constructions to the gods for the gift of a second life and enjoying that life. The ultimate party dudes.

I don't really know what sorts of other races belong in the category of goblin allies/other evil races. Maybe the subterranean animal peoples, some of them are explicitly stated to have evil tendencies, like reptile people. They could dig huge open shafts up to the surface and live around the walls of them and raid nearby settlements for slaves and treasure.
Maybe dark gnomes, being inherently twisted and evil in nature and already present, but rarely encountered, can join in by forming their own evil version of dwarven civilization. Then what do mountain gnomes do? Come to dwarves' inns to party?
Intelligent undead liberated from necromancer influence, or necromancer's themselves, could ally with goblin civs, promoting both their interests simultaneously.
I've liked the idea of semi-megabeast alliances and used them in mods in the past. Maybe giants, ettins, cyclopes, and minotaurs could form agreements with goblins to help them conquer areas in return for their own privacy and share of the treasures.
Human and dwarf civs/religions worshipping demons could betray the living world by siding with the demons they worship.
Toady and Threetoe don't often talk about other races besides those already present, but for more goblin allies and extra races in general that's where you'd head. They used tiger men once in one Threetoe story, but as an ally of the elves iirc. Procgen can provide random ones on a per-world basis with a in-world mythos reason to exist. Otherwise you have to make them up. Something that doesn't appear in every single high fantasy/d&d inspired game/book/whatever.

[Golbolco]

Personally, I don't support the notion that procedural generation can replace every type of civilization that could be added, because even if procedurally generated civs took advantage of all the different mechanics and tags available to them that still leaves the people preferring less proc-gen when they make a world without bigger variety in the civs available to them.

I mean, sure, but...those people are looking in the wrong place. While there is, generally, an attempt to cater to them too, Dwarf Fortress as a project is all about procgen.

Definitely, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that procgen will be coexisting with several clearly-defined features. When it comes to civilization, I'm with Eric Blank that it should be used to help differentiate the cultures of otherwise identical civilizations.

I think that the best way to handle additional invading races would be to create races more similar to elves than goblins, where conflict arises primarily because of lifestyle and ethics but is not always guaranteed. I really like the idea of centaurs as a nomadic, grazing race (although iirc centaurs will eventually just be procgen-taurs.) Perhaps centaurs, being nomadic, do not believe in the ownership of the land like dwarves and the other races do, eventually leading to conflict if your territory becomes overdeveloped.

[cauaule fantasy writing]

I think it would be interesting to have may be a mind flayer like race that acts as a another type of FUN. Like an alien race of beings from outside the univers or from Space that acts as end game villain. While FUN acts a a more physical type or enemy( Clowns do love there slapstick) These being can cause madness, tantrums, heck maybe even Taking over  dwarves and having them conspire angaist the fortress like an Lovecraftian cult! Or go dueager style and have it be that your dwarves star obsessing about digging deep within the earth were any time your not giving them task there trying to dig deep. Mabey the text could be " your Dwarves have followed there dark craving For far too long. They have breach the hive of______ (insert randomly generated Alien name) Now they know the true meaning of madness. It would be really fun an add a horror aspect to the game. It is going to be  All hallows eve pretty soon! So I would keep your pics to your selves little Dwarves for if ye find that your mind beings to wonder on what bubbles an throths outside are reality.... it might be best to lock your door drink plenty of your mothers no Dream tea. Because what crawls between the places you aren't looking aren't as freighting as the monster
who crawls right outside the door of time and space. It's good that your sacred not to look outside Dwarf................. Because the truth is some times much better to be left untoched then dug up and seen by your beedy little eyes.......... Good night! I hope you remeber to wash up after all. I did a real number to your place. Tectalces...they get so hungry am I right? heheheh.Heheheheh.ehehheheohoehhehehehoehoheoh.hehehheoeheoheohehhHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHH.MWAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHH. AAAHAHAHAHAH, AHAHA, (Lighting strikes) AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHA HAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAh.......ehhhh. Goos night my lovie midnight......snack.....

[Fikilili]

I completely agree with Golbolco, Tarn once described DF as a "Generic fantasy setting generator" and I don't think we're going to get procgen races anytime soon. Maybe two or three with randomly generated physical features (Maybe something like forgotten beasts but weirder, like forgotten civs?), but if we were going to replace dwarves, elves, humans and goblins by those procgen races, it won't be Dwarf Fortress, but... I dunno, ProcGen fortress. Tarn has passed so much time defining most of those races and features and gameplay mechanics surrounding them, throwing everything into the trash for the sake of procgen sounds like time wasted.
But anyway yeah, I think we should think of what the current races have to offer and think about what the game could do with some of it's current features.

You've been talking about kobolds becoming familiars in households, which is very reminiscent of Russian folklore in which there are some tiny "gnome"-like sprites or spirits that act as house-keeping familiars. If you take care of them, they'll bring fortune to you. Forgotten Beasts can already be associated to certain philosohical/societal values, so implementing a race directly tied to faith, or a feature that allows mythical creatures to exist because of your dwarves' faith would be very interesting. It could give us stuff similar to Domovoys or Leprechauns.
Also, I'd like to see some creatures being more fleshed out as well, especially the satyrs and the foul blendecs. People seem to forget about them most of the time, and I wish they had a bigger influence in the game. Maybe having small tribes of satyrs and foul blendecs? Who knows. And yeah, maybe implementing more mythology-inspired creatures would be great, stuff like Nymphs, Amazons, Hulders, Changelings, Korrigans, etc. Maybe not every creature from every mythology, but some of them would be interestingly tied to some features of the game. I could imagine Elves being more similar to that of Nordic mythos and be more spiritual beings linked to light and darkness, or being allied to the Nymphs.

[Golbolco]

Personally, I love the idea of a forgotten civ generator. Imagine breaching the cavern and finding an underground city of procedurally generated monster-folk with strange religion, sideways ethics, and exotic trade goods--if you don't upset them in integrating your sites.

Generic fantasy settings generally have a lost civilization taking inspiration from Howard and Lovecraft, and DnD has the Underdark, so there's precedent for this.

[delphonso]

I would love for breaching the caverns to have another benefit. Right now it just invites FBs and possibly provides you with water and wood. More real benefits (additional traders) would be great.

[Fikilili]

Well reptile men and gorlaks can already appear in caverns. Reptile men are likely to have spears and clothing and all. So maybe we could do something with them? I'm not sure. I guess forgotten civs might be great. A race that really hates the sun also. Or another sort of "underworld". Kinda like "Journey to the center of the Earth" you know? The game sometimes mentions dinosaurs and stuff, so why not bring that up?

[Fikilili]

Also, I wanted to bring this subject to the table a while back, but I dunno if this is also someone else's opinion. But anyway;
I think humans are pretty dull. Not just as how they are used in DF, but as a fantasy race in general. You know? You got dwarves, industrialistic small bearded creatures who live in moutains, dig, love the underground, gold and gems, value objects, praise hard work and get moods. You got elves, pointy eared bastards close to magic and nature, who embrace unity and harmony as a whole. Goblins, orcs and what not... And then you have humans. Who are... Just humans.

In DF, human villages tend to look exactly the same, kinda like viking outposts with no real consistency. A house can be assigned as a tavern, or another one as a hospital or a shop, it doesn't feel like an actual city, but more like a melsh of people who simulate the idea that the building itself is a shop/tavern/hospital. So maybe fleshing human villages would be great? I know this suggestion has been brought up many times before.

What could be interesting, however, is that each civilization has different styles of architecture and city design. Take Europe for example, they each country may be close to one another, but each have their own city design and building appearance. Human Cities could have districts, precincts, boroughs, blocks, etc. and even their own styles of buildings. Maybe something similar to yurts, or russian great halls, or Dojos or Haussman houses. Castles could be very medieval-ish or have a renaissance-esque attire depending on the civilization it has been built in!

As for humans themselves, I was thinking they could be given a little "something", like a fantasy feature that no other civ could have. For example; Civ A's people are more likely to have frivolous hair that grows to supernatural lenghts, while Civ B's people are all tied together by magic rocks they get at birth, leading them to form some kind of group-think. This could go from physical features, to magical features, to strange behaviors.

[Eric Blank]

I love the idea of little special features like that for some civs. But humans in general in fantasy often have one particular trope; religious fanaticism. Paladins and holy orders that seek to purge everything they don't like from the world. Including the other races, and their religions. Religions fight amongst each other now, but it's nothing like the Spanish Inquisition or the crusades or the Muslim conquest of the Arabic world or Christian conquest of Pagan Europe. I've not seen in legends mode any "join us or die" directed at the entire population or slaughter of everyone that opposes or displeases them and wholesale eradication of every last vestige of pre-extant religions shrines, books, history, etc. Of course, it's a very Abrahamic-faith trait, so it doesn't make sense unless and until religions that believe "there is but one God and everyone else is Satan" are possible. But it would indeed make humans spicier. Almost unbearably spicy. Like the evil cult trying to take over the world spicy.

If it were to happen rarely, like one in a hundred religions could go berserk, it wouldn't be too spicy, but if it happened all the time in every world it would become bland fast.

[Fikilili]

I love the idea of little special features like that for some civs. But humans in general in fantasy often have one particular trope; religious fanaticism. Paladins and holy orders that seek to purge everything they don't like from the world. Including the other races, and their religions. Religions fight amongst each other now, but it's nothing like the Spanish Inquisition or the crusades or the Muslim conquest of the Arabic world or Christian conquest of Pagan Europe. I've not seen in legends mode any "join us or die" directed at the entire population or slaughter of everyone that opposes or displeases them and wholesale eradication of every last vestige of pre-extant religions shrines, books, history, etc. Of course, it's a very Abrahamic-faith trait, so it doesn't make sense unless and until religions that believe "there is but one God and everyone else is Satan" are possible.

While I do agree that this would make an interesting suggestion, I don't think Tarn is going to even consider it. He has already stated he wasn't going to implement racism in any way (though it would have been interesting to see how he would have allowed the player to fight or treat racism), so I do'nt think we're going to see Holy Wars and/or genocides. Especially considering recent events.
I mean, a genocide could always happen, but it's either a) the player's will, or b) the AI that went on war with a specific civilization that was the home of one of the five main races. Hell, the wiki states there's also a possibility for the humans to entirely conquer to the planet to the point that dwarves become source of legend.
But anyway, I don't want to spark debate of any kind, but I wanted to address this.