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[Fikilili]

Throughout the years, there has been a whole lot of suggestions to upgrade certain races of the game, or even add some more. Since we can't seem to agree on whats worth adding, let's have a whole thread where we discuss about it!
Well anyway, this thread is all about the existing races of the game; dwarves, elves, humans, goblins, kobolds, gorlaks and animal people. But it's also about who we could also add in the game! Whether or not Tarn has the intent of adding a new race or not, it would interesting to see what could be worth adding and/or our suggestions can be good or bad for the game. Whether it be a new race, or some tweaks for the existing ones, it's open bar!

So I didn't know how properly start this thread, but I'll say this two things before we do any suggestions;
1 - Make sure you know the existing races enough, and refer to yourself as what Tarn has planned for the next updates, so that you don't suggest something that is already present.
2 - If you suggest a new race, PUH-LEASE, give it a proper, english-sounding (or any of its dialects) name, because having one that sounds like a Star Wars name, like Jiihibijagri, Xelebepeht or Zibaluroath can be quite tongue-twisting or outright confusing to the eyes of some people. Keep things simple! Thrall, Drow, Tiefling, Hobbit, Gelfling, Orc, Gnome, Faery, Leprechaun, etc.

Anyway, the thread is on.

[IndigoFenix]

Considering that most new races can be modded in, a new race isn't really worth a suggestion except in the cases where adding a race would require new mechanics that don't exist yet.

With that in mind, I'd say giving merpeople underwater cities should be a start.

I'd also like to see better support for nomadic or tribal civilizations, possibly as an extension of the current bandit camp and army system, but where a civilization could be defined as being entirely made up of small camps and/or roaming groups.  This would work well for animal people.

[Azerty]

I'd also like to see better support for nomadic or tribal civilizations, possibly as an extension of the current bandit camp and army system, but where a civilization could be defined as being entirely made up of small camps and/or roaming groups.  This would work well for animal people.

We should first provide motives for nomadism, such as soil depletion, seasons and cattle.

[delphonso]

With that in mind, I'd say giving merpeople underwater cities should be a start.

Some sort of underwater location tokens would be much appreciated.

I am unclear on how races will look when MythGen is completed. It seems that the names "Elf", "Dwarf", and so on will still exist but they could be quite different from what we know now (immortality, magic, ethics, and appearance all being generated). So adding new races might be nothing more than fiddling with some sliders in the regular game. That is at least 2 years down the line, though.

As far as modding goes - I think everyone has been asking for more possible sites, or the ability to design sites ourselves - right now races basically live in forest retreats, towns/hamlets, or fortress/hillocks. I believe this is tied to how the map works, so it's hard to change. More tokens to adjust this stuff would be great.

[Luckyowl]

yeah, having more options to customize a site is honestly all we need, since we can just mod races into the game, but we can't really give our races a unique site that represent who they are, as of now.

[Fikilili]

Well. My thread is useless, I suppose.

Anyway, I wouldn't be agaisnt a rehaul of the elves, due to the fact that they make absolutely no sense. I said it once and I'll say it again.
The elves hate artefacts made of wood and dwarves "hurting" trees. But the thing that these very same tree-fondling hippies come to your fortress, selling wood logs, bows and arrows. And sure they have many problems with wood, but they don't see any issues with skinning animals or using their bones as tools.
In reality, if these elves were to be absolutely accurate, they would be more likely to be tribal people. Without any recorded culture and history, because everything is passed and learned through oral traditions. But still, sometimes they make books, sometimes out of wood, or sculpt stones, with tools (sometimes made of wood).
Their settlements are... Pitiful. Just. Literally the trees are their houses. They live like monkeys. I don't see why they would regard dwarves with such high standards. Pah!

Anyway, my suggestion is that Elves should be more okay with woodcutting and be able to create sites and castles out of stone, in broad daylight. But the thing is, they don't eat meat or kill peaceful animals. Their cattle solely exist for the purpose of milk production. That plus the fact that they adopt the most animals out of the five races. They would be able to make trees grow faster, and even make their own little gardens, where they take good care of plants and trees.
They could think of war as unnethical or outright savage, and even use martial arts as a way of teaching life and balance. It's lifestyle first, combat second.
Also they could closer to magic, I dunno.

[Nordlicht]

I don't think they should turn into standard elves, at least that's the feeling I get from your description. Them not having a problem with eating their (sentient) enemies is nothing that strikes me a unfitting, they are just concerned about their trees. And as far as I know their wooden products consist of grown wood, which I think should imply it was grown that way and no tree was hurt.


For the tree thing, it needs to be flashed out, but in the end saying they life in trees like monkeys would be like saying dwarves live in tunnels like moles. Just needs more fluff.


Imho DF Elves are one of the few elf depictions that are not the oh-so-smart but poor ancient misunderstood victims. And I hope when they are more flashed out we get more distinct DF like elves.

[betaking]

I mean as far as elves, dwarves and goblins are concerned I'd like to see goblins changed more than elves, I barely encounter elves at all..

goblins on the other hand seem to expand at such a rate that they take up vast amounts of "the good sites" with their stupid trenchworks.

Part of me also wants more "elf varities" including high-elves simply because they'd be more interesting to trade with unlike elves.

Goblins should be nerfed in terms of their ability to spread.

[Luckyowl]

I don't think they should turn into standard elves, at least that's the feeling I get from your description. Them not having a problem with eating their (sentient) enemies is nothing that strikes me a unfitting, they are just concerned about their trees. And as far as I know their wooden products consist of grown wood, which I think should imply it was grown that way and no tree was hurt.


For the tree thing, it needs to be flashed out, but in the end saying they life in trees like monkeys would be like saying dwarves live in tunnels like moles. Just needs more fluff.


Imho DF Elves are one of the few elf depictions that are not the oh-so-smart but poor ancient misunderstood victims. And I hope when they are more flashed out we get more distinct DF like elves.

DF elves here are pretty unique, they are sort of like children of the forest and stand around 5'0. I  think most people here  gloss over that fact, since we're so hard wired to believe that elves = tall and beautiful, but it's not the case with these elves. They are more like Kokiri from the legend of zelda when it comes to their appearance, they even got the whole home tree going for them.

[Bumber]

DF elves here are pretty unique, they are sort of like children of the forest and stand around 5'0.

Where are you getting that measurement from? We know that they're taller and less muscular than dwarves (having the same volume but making fun of dwarves' height.) I don't think we know how their height compares to humans.

[Fikilili]

Ok, so here's the deal.
I think Elves should definetly be more okay with wood-cutting, but create artefacts and items that more "naturally authentic". To put it simply, whereas dwarves create complex items with various details made of different metals and materials, mostly stones, metals and gems, elves create wood items that look like strong branches that were bent into that shape.
For examples; an elven bow would be curvier, have a very rustic and authentic look to it, and mostly be composed of non-industrialized component, such as, let's say, spider webs for the bowstring. It could be decorated with leaves, sea shells, gems or tree amber, or any other surface natural ressource. Now you may say that they're already doing this, but I suggest that Elves should be able to grow exotic types of trees and maybe expand a bit more on the items they create.

Their villages, settlements and cities could be mostly made of rocks and blend in with nature, rather than having them literally living in trees. For example, they can carve mountains into castles and let trees grow all around, while planting flowers to symbolize different places. Maybe implementing flower language could be a thing?
Another interesting thing would be to have elves master different crafts that dwarves don't usually practice. Maybe have them being able to make more glass items and give to an elite of elves the ability to bend wood into various shapes to create items (wood bending)?

Another interesting thing that could be implemented would be the natural order among elves. Since they are closer to nature, the thought of having Elves who are naturally superior or more adapted to a middle than the others could be an interesting take on their closeness to the ecosystem. As Betaking suggested, High Elves could come into play. They would basically transcend the elves by being able to manipulate plants, trees and crops, or be yet closer to magic. Dark Elves could be their polar opposite, completely alienated from nature and refusing to embrace it (they could maybe be the fruit of the clowns, giving the elves some rivals?). Drows would probably be the weirdest, I guess. Being both friends of nature, but also very fond of industry. Kinda like them giant megacorporations selling eco friendly products, but taken to another extreme.
Also, having elves that correspond the biome they're in could be interesting; so like, if an elf was born in a cold area, he would feel lost or unfamiliar with hotter biomes. A snow elf in the desert would lose his mind over how the sun completely dries them. Deep and Hill dwarves already have some minor differences, such as being more likely to be sun-sick if they live underground, but as of now, those differences are quite minimal. Tarn said he would expand on that, so I hope he does the same with elves.

[Pillbo]

I'd really like gnome civs and halfling/hobbit race/civ to be added. Adding races been talked about a lot before, the standard response is "everything's going to be proc gen so don't bother." or  "More civs can be modded, it's a waste of time." I'm not a fan of those answers because managing mods kind of sucks, there are often problems from the modding that make the game less fun to play instead of just enhancing it and I've never had a modded game last very long.  I'd prefer to have 10 races with 1 society each than 5 races with 2 slightly different societies each, it's just more fun to have a different race creature show up to your fort. Even when things are proc-gen I will be a player that prefers a more standard fantasy world. So...

Halflings could be pretty similar to hill-dwarves. Not creating large societies and cities, but living in small hamlets. Peaceful little villages sprinkles around the world, not creating wars and militaries, friendly but maybe not trusting of outsiders, possibly a little greedy and collecting valuable things but unlikely to be outright thieves. Non-nomadic agrarian types, farming, herding, crafting things like fine clothing, great cooks, farmers, clothiers, beekeepers, wax workers, herbalists, brewers, maybe carpenters. Slightly isolationist, but willing to trade with caravans that come to them. I'm not sure how they'd defend themselves but I'm sure we could come up with some way. Maybe they thrive in 'good' areas (I know good/evil is going away) and are at peace with nature? Maybe they are just good at hiding when titans and armies bumble by.

Gnomes also living in small societies but more science-minded tinkerers. Using power, building windmills, pumps, traps, era-appropriate machines, (possibly golem-ish machines when there is magic), gunpowders/explosives, alchemy, scholarly things, libraries, craftsmen, glassmakers.  Friendly but dangerous, bad fighters, they survive the world by being difficult to get to in their cities (in the mountains? woods? maybe it doesn't matter) and defending themselves with their technology not their bodies. Would probably sent traders around the world for supplies with hired guards from other races.

---

As far as the elves being ok with woodcutting, that's the type of thing I'm fine with letting be variable world to world with procgen. I like them being unreasonable tree lovers but I'm ok with them not always being that way.

They do trade grown wood, and it would make them more interesting if they were willing to provide your fort grown lumber to work with in exchange for protecting the trees in your area. Or if the elves that work in your work could be used to get grown wood from existing trees.

[Nordlicht]

I think animal people with procedural societies could fill all these roles. They wouldn't have to be tribal by default. Some Ravenpeople could life like Halflings, and some Snailman may life like a Dark Elves. Personally I'm really not a fan of adding more stock races that are basically every cliche known about them down to a T.

[Pillbo]

I want animal people to be a lot more interesting too, it's unfortunate they are all there aren't.  IMO the point wouldn't be to add 'stock races that are basically every cliche known about them down to a T'. It would still be a variable procgen mechanic when that part of the game is working. But having halflings, gnomes and whatever else as part of those variables would be nice.

If there were entities created to fulfill these roles (as well as tribal, nomadic and any others) and the addition a few other 'stock' races to the raws that are fleshed out (along with finishing the animal people). You can then mix and match in worldgen and get worlds where raven people live like halflings, and gnomes live like dwarves, and deer people are the elves, and hyena people live like goblins, elves are creepy evil magic users, etc.

I'm not a fan of endless splitting of races in some fantasy. I don't really want High, Dark, Grey, Shadow, whatever Elves for example. I'd be more interested in there just being elves, and those elves have various cultures that we might associate with these differences.

[Eric Blank]

That's an excellent point. More variation in culture and style for every race in every every world would be appreciated. Elf retreats and goblin pits are literally my least favorite sites, goblin sites because the population explosion issue makes them unapproachable, and elves because they don't have enough interesting infrastructure. Iirc in the threetoe story about the elf/goblin hybrid child, the elf queen lives in a sort of natural palace of a tree, with a semi-interior setting which the forest retreats lack now. I'd like to see more variations on the way elven trees are grown, with some having interior spaces and rooms formed from trunk/branch walls or something. We never get to see shaping trees actually growing products, they just have meat and fruit stockpiles for the most part, like weird arboreal warehouses where items are hung out to dry. Their homes are always out on open branches, they don't have a thick branch ceiling or anything to keep them dry, which is weird, but I guess it's canon that elves are like immune to hypothermia and don't mind being soaking wet?

They could use some soil dens for animals, because some of their animals would prefer to live in dens even if elves don't want to live underground.

Human civs need more variation, or even one or two more civs, including mostly nomadic tribes and more structured empires. And more variation on architectural styles. Some cultures build round mud brick houses with a flat roof, others build sloped/ramped roofs, some use two-story structures or buildings which are supported on stilts. That would make human civs much more interesting. Oh, and workshops. They don't have places to work.

As far as improvements to the creatures themselves, I am eternally frustrated with cave adaptation in fort mode. Your militia becomes useless as soon as they walk out onto the surface to fight something. I often build large aboveground structures just because subterranean life results in such vulnerability. I would almost like to see cave adaptation as like a caste thing, where dwarves who grew up in subterranean mountain halls became cave adapted, but the populations of hillocks and forts aren't affected, so only some of your dwarves can even become cave adapted, depending on where they grew up. Or maybe if nausea on exposure to sunlight wasn't such a problem...

Animal people should spawn civs occasionally, but keep wild populations too. Right now you can't do that, as civ creatures never appear in the wild.

Subterranean animal people definitely could use little hovels they can protect themselves in and maybe some manner of interconnected trade network, like paths you can follow to reach other groups, they come wandering through and trade, can point adventurers to the nearest exit/cave level change.

Oh, what about more, and increased cultural variations of races? Like, they're all dwarves, but dwarves from civ b are smaller, and have higher average endurance, and dwarves from civ a have higher average agility.