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[Sugardust]

Howdy. Was thinking about putting this on the suggestions board but this would be a better place as I'm sure it's been talked about before. What's the general consensus on gunpower technology in DF?

I'm aware of DF's "time period cap", where Tarn wishes to keep things pretty medieval, but gunpowder technology would still fit this era in any case. Depictions of gunpowder cannons date back to the early 13th century in Europe, and even earlier in other parts of the world. Many if not all of the raw materials required to make gunpowder are present in DF as far as I'm aware as well, those being saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur. While being quite hard to make, it could open up many possibilities gameplay wise, from utilizing explosives for mining to taking advantage of it for warfare in the form of cannons or other weaponry. I just would like to hear everyone's thoughts on it and if it could benefit or hurt the game in your opinions. Thanks lads.

[Nordlicht]

If it's integrated well, I like it. Age of Wonders had Gunpowder Units and it fits the Atmosphere of a Medieval / Fantasy game.

I hope tech in general becomes different for each world, so some could have Guns, while others are still in ancient times.

[BlueManedHawk]

One thing I do wonder about is workshops.  Would gunpowder be made in a preexisting workshop, or would a new workshop be made?  How would accidental ignition be dealt with?  What labor would this use?  )I personally think that Alchemy would work well here.)  Additionally, what about different "purities" of gunpowder?  Not all gunpowder is created equal, but instead it's all made for a particular purpose.  You can't use popit gunpowder in a gun, after all.  Also, can gunpowder be created with charcoal, or does it require bitch you men house coal?  If so, I think that a new "Bit Choose Mini Ouch Coal" notifier on the Embark screen would be necessary.

[delphonso]

I personally prefer my fantasy low-tech (even unrealistically low tech). So I'm quite happy to not have guns in the hands of dwarves. But I know that's not a universal opinion.

Like Nordlicht, if it's implemented well, I'd be fine with it, but probably wouldn't use it.

[BlueManedHawk]

I think it's important to note that most guns at the "time" where DF is set were very slow to reload and were typically not super powerful.  Therefore, if guns were to be implemented, they would probably not be an exclusive weapon able to slaughter thousands, and instead they'd be more of a powerful aid.

Also, the process of bullet making at the time was to simply sieve lead from a high height into water.  Would this require a multi-level workshop of some sort?

[Pillbo]

Personally I'm not really fond of the idea of guns in the fantasy setting either, but gunpowder fits the theme ok to me.

The first device identified as a gun, a bamboo tube that used gunpowder to fire a spear, appeared in China around AD 1000.[2] The Chinese had previously invented gunpowder in the 9th century.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hand cannon from the Chinese Yuan Dynasty (1271–1368)

The first confirmed reference to what can be considered gunpowder in China occurred in the 9th century AD during the Tang dynasty, first in a formula contained in the Taishang Shengzu Jindan Mijue (太上聖祖金丹秘訣) in 808, and then about 50 years later in a Taoist text known as the Zhenyuan miaodao yaolüe (真元妙道要略).

It seems like a good use of the alchemy skill, done at an alchemists workshop. Grinding together dangerous minerals dug out a mountain and blowing themselves up seems pretty dwarfy to me. 

what about different "purities" of gunpowder?  Not all gunpowder is created equal, but instead it's all made for a particular purpose.

Quality level on the gunpowder? Better alchemists make better gunpowder that's less likely to blow up the workshop?

Guns? Meh. Bring on the half-assed explosive spear-throwing weapons, and workshop disasters, and explosive trap components, and cave-ins because a dragon set your gunpowder stockroom on fire.

[Egan_BW]

A prerequisite I'd see for having gunpowder technology in the game would be things actually getting invented during history, as scholars increase their knowledge. This would mean that guns and such are possible but not present in every single world, because I don't think Toady likes the idea of them being omnipresent.

[BlueManedHawk]

Research and the gaining of knowledge on a world level seems really interesting, but I think that's something for a different thread.

[neblime]

I think it would be very interesting to have a setting with pervasive gunpowder alongside the existing one, but if I had to pick just one I would prefer as it is now, there's probably some compromise:
Imagine it like in LOTR, one powerful learned wizard uses "magic" to create this black powder that can explode, and no one really knows what's going on, I think that would be better.

[delphonso]

I listened back to the old DF Talks this month - Toady's stance on this has been that he doesn't want it in the main game but would be willing to add in the ability to create it for modders. He said something about multi-z-level explosions being difficult to deal with though.

[King Mir]

I think DF needs gunpowder because fantasy needs explosions. For dwarves, gunpowder would actually be more important as a dynamite replacement than for combat, but of course it's an easy thing to weaponize. It would also be a good counter to turtle fortresses, if used by invaders. Exploding barrels of various fluids would be great to mod in, but it all has to start with the historical use of explosives as the best model, and that means gunpowder.

[madpathmoth]

I listened back to the old DF Talks this month - Toady's stance on this has been that he doesn't want it in the main game but would be willing to add in the ability to create it for modders. He said something about multi-z-level explosions being difficult to deal with though.

How difficult coding in explosions would be was something I was going to bring up so I'm glad to hear Tarn's stance on it.  I'm in the group of "guns? meh.  bombs? yes."  Pillbo said it well; dwarves using primitive explosives for mining and trap components seems fitting and interesting.  I imagine explosions of some kind would be most likely to be implemented in the far off Myth & Magic release; it seems like a reasonable expectation for a potential magical effect, whether intentional or as some kind of magical backfire.

[delphonso]

I recall reading something - perhaps it was in Future of the Fortress - that the map will be rewritten during Myth and Magic, including the main world map. I believe the reason was that the way it was written means houses can't be more complex or easily procgenned. Anyway, if the map is being rewritten for Myth and Magic, then we might see some structure put in to make this easier. Probably not high on the list though, and explosions could just be sudden fire spread in an area to give a similar effect.

[Egan_BW]

Given that it's myth&magic, I think we're likely to see explosions. Because explosions are one of the most iconic things that magic does, especially when misused.

[LordBaal]

Toady about guns, he dont like the idea but basically the ability to mod them in would be easy once the game is more rawified and you can define things like reload rate or adding a second ammo (say you need a bullet and also powder) or whatever.

But I asked him once about naval warfare, since the ships of the "time" certainly could (and did) use cannons, he was more open to the idea of cannons as naval weapons, but once he put them on vessels I guess there is nothing stoping you from put them on a wagon or your fortress walls or mod little handheld versions, so we will have to see the end result, but is really, really sure we will be able to mod them in.