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[GOTOTOTOE]

im trans but considering that transness is a pretty recent thing all things considered i would rather just make the very concept of gender procedurally generated, with a general trend towards binary cultures but differing in where they draw the line, just like it is in real cultures. i saw a pretty great paper about this but i forgot the name

ooh yea
Yeah, I kinda feel that if there's gonna be gender there ought to be gender, i.e. a set of societal norms that tends to be but is not necessarily correlated with sex, involving differing expectations of decorum, clothing and so on.

I would not mind it if dwarves didn't have a concept of gender at all, if only because that's actually a rather common feature in dwarves in fantasy. Plus, I kinda find the idea of only finding "girl dwarves" or "boy dwarves" as opposed to just "dwarves" in human civilization kinda neat.

[ChaosPotato]

No. Dwarf Fortress is based on medieval times, which happened WAY before gender became confusing.

[Nordlicht]

Do you not believe that men live contrary to Nature who exchange the fashion of their attire with women?

                                                                                                                       -Seneca, yesterday probably

[Eric Blank]

The only society in vanilla DF that actually has any suggestion of gender roles are elves, with explicitly female-only queens and princesses.

It doesn't come up much, and the only reason I can think of dwarves or other races would want gender specific clothing for is bras for women, and that aspect of life is glossed over/ignored right now, one can just assume women in DF have things sorted out already.

Pronoun choosing would be easy to implement. But subverting gender norms means adding gender norms which is basically creating a social problem in order to implement a solution.

The only other plus to implementing gender/caste specific clothing I can think of is for modding, like, telling the game that serpent men in dwarf mode they don't have to worry about wearing pants/shoes, because right now they do and get bad thoughts for not being able to wear them, even though, you know, no ass/feet to cover up. So you could tell the game "castes with no stance body part or a stance part that is a tail category don't need to feel bad because they can't wear  shoes, creatures that use the humanoid_legless_neck body plan can ignore the need for pants or wear this fancy snake-skirt we provide exclusively for them, now quit bitching."

[ChaosPotato]

Do you not believe that men live contrary to Nature who exchange the fashion of their attire with women?

                                                                                                                       -Seneca, yesterday probably

haha no

                                                                                                                       -The entirety of Scotland.

[GOTOTOTOE]

No. Dwarf Fortress is based on medieval times, which happened WAY before gender became confusing.

gender has always manifested itself in different ways though, especially back then. gender changes

[A_Curious_Cat]

Do you not believe that men live contrary to Nature who exchange the fashion of their attire with women?

                                                                                                                       -Seneca, yesterday probably

Are you sure Seneca really said that?  If so, which Seneca?

I'm asking because I looked in lists of quotes from both Seneca the elder and Seneca the younger, and couldn't find that quote.

It doesn't come up much, and the only reason I can think of dwarves or other races would want gender specific clothing for is bras for women, and that aspect of life is glossed over/ignored right now, one can just assume women in DF have things sorted out already.

From what I can tell, it looks like bras come in after the 1400 cut-off.  I think corsets might  too.

[Starver]

ISTR (and am resisting the call to Wiki it), bras were invented at about the time that Rational Dress was coming into fuller acceptance, i.e. the earlier parts of the 1900s, and were originally two handkerchiefs and some connecting material in order to avoid the whalebone corsets and other restrictive bodice-like 'foundation garments'.

But there were apparent precursors in prior ages (not obviously inspiring the above emergence) including solid evidence for breast-banding (for less pain during active pursuits, rather than for 'drag king' binding down of awkward lumps'n'bumps of femininity) amongst Roman women. Essentially a minimalist 'boob-tube' worn (together with nether garments) in stark contrast to the stari naked Greek men of sport.

There might well be a number of classes of female-UB clothing practical to include. Some, though surely not all, of bustiers, bodices, kirtles, dirndls (had to check that spelling!) and various forms of (proto-?)corsetry. Being no real expert in clothing terminology, and vaguer yet about female garb (to protest only about the right amount, not too much) I wouldn't know the difference between half of them anyway.

But the "two hankies" thing I'm sure I heard of in the '70s (may be fashionably wrong, as of the time, and debunked since). The question to ask is whether dwarven mammary tissue is (outside of such scant evidence gleaned from the Raws) as prominent and sometimes precipitous as we expect to see in Earthly hu(wo)mans, or not. Other than bearing the children, sex and gender issues tend not to be obviously important in their lives. Perhaps this extends to upper-torso (or whatever domain applies) physiology.

[IndigoFenix]

Realism aside, exploring different gender norms is a popular trope in fantasy stories.  One of my favorites (which seems like it could be right out of a potential future Dwarf Fortress) is the Stormlight Archives, where in the main culture of the stories, only men use weapons, but only women read and write.  There are individuals who break these rules but they are seen as strange at best or social outcasts at worst, except the clergy who are considered culturally androgynous and have their own social norms.  Also, women cover one of their hands, with various social implications of the manner in which they cover it (a long, closed sleeve is modest and conservative, a regular glove is suggestive, and a fingerless glove is raunchy).

I think procgen gender systems (or better yet, caste systems to handle modded species) per culture could be an interesting fit for DF, with varying levels of tolerance for people who bend or break these norms.

[Pillbo]

From what I can tell, it looks like bras come in after the 1400 cut-off.  I think corsets might  too.

Women throughout history have used a variety of garments and devices to support, cover, restrain, reveal, or modify the appearance of their breasts. Bra- or bikini-like garments are depicted in art of female athletes of the Minoan civilization, ca. 14th century BC[1] and there is some evidence to suggest that even from the Greco-Roman period women had developed specialized bra-like garments used for the purpose of supporting the breast. By the 14th century AD the proto-bra was in development in Europe and from approximately the 16th century AD onward, the undergarments of wealthier women in the Western world were dominated by the corset, which supported the breasts by transferring their weight to the rib cage[citation needed].

I also like that there are not gender norms right now, but I can see why people would like them. With procgen I can imagine people getting pretty peeved to learn that their dwarven civ's norms say women aren't allowed to craft/work/haul/fight making management of labors much more annoying. Even just needing to manage two different sets of clothes because men and women won't wear the same shoes would be pretty annoying.

[Starver]

...their dwarven civ's norms say women aren't allowed to craft/work/haul/fight...

Or must.

[Putnam]

The player-confusion issue is the most compelling reason not to give dwarves gender norms, yeah. The fact that this is a common trope in fantasy anyway is serendipity.

[Fikilili]

Damn I wish my threads were that popular. Does homosexuality really brings that much debate among the community?

[cauaule fantasy writing]

I think that having gender oppression mequaincs honestly is not a good idea. I think no matter the case putting gender norms as featuer of DF I think raises a lot problematic possibility's*. , I believe there could be mequaincs for Trans dwarves and non binary dwarves(I think as a cis person I don't have a right to talk on what specific mequaincs trans and non binary dwarves should have but I think that it should be talked about in future updates epically with the myth update on the horizon and all the entity's who could have fluid gender Identity's like fey,gods,angels, Etc. As well I think it would be good to reach out to those members of are comunnity) by maybe the same way that Gay and Ace Dwarves are generated? Then again I will always referee to the Trans and Nonbinary folks of the DF community for what they would see as the best way to do this or even if they should do this.
 


* Basically I think it would just hamper gameplay and add a mequaincs that if not imputed in a way that is extremely detailed and has some abillty to generate  systemic oppression in a really fine tuned way could just end up feeling very out of place and I am going to be honest just kind uncomfortable if not executed in a smart way. Not saying could not happen but it needs  to be done in a  very intricate fashion. Systemic oppression is not simple and while I do find having a Ewoyen vs the Witch king type moments a cool idea (or any interesting stories when it comes to gender oppression) I don't how those type of moment's would be reflected in game proper.

[Fikilili]

This thread is just going to go on forever, will it?