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Author Topic: The Problem with Produce  (Read 1495 times)

Quift

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 05:32:00 am »

The other side of the problem in coming with produce is that there is not much use producing.

once everyone has a descent weapon and armor who needs it, I have made backpacks and waterskins for everyone and I'm drowning in food and rock H effectilvly have no reason to keep up the production. The last three years all production in my fort has gone to a standstill to empty up the food stockppiles, and there is no reason to make anything out of leather or coth anymore. Nor carpentry or masonry.

I have basicly produced the finite amount of goods needed to run the fortress indefinitly. My main export is silk narrow clothing and the most common job in my fortress is dumping excess stone into the lava. to the point of keep handing out wages despite there not being that much work o do I have even built a casino the keep my dwarfes filthy rich. Those dwarfes who have not yet hit legendary that is.

The main problem in food production is basicly that the consumption is too low. Everyone is eating lavish meals, I take care of producing as many ingridients as possible so that the meals contain fish, meat, wheat, mushrooms etc. there are at least 5 kinds of booze and I have over 200 caged animals whith only the pet ones reproducing.


The main reason this is broken is that there is a very finite domestic demand. Dwarfes neither need nor want much aside a small room with basic furniture and do not ue clothes. they don't wear crafts, new clothes, demand pocket knifes once the old ones are broken and gone, they do not brake stone mugs, nor appreciate golden mugs (since they still not use them)

Once the basic needs are met (and this should be harder), there should be a demand for more goods, dwarefs should get a bad thought if they coulnd't afford to buy new stuff this month, and wages should increase if there is a surplus of production to reflect the wealth of the fortress attracting immigrants in search of a better life.

the higher the wages the more immigration you get, and the higher the wage of the individual dwarf the higher are his expectations of consumtion. Eating a lavish meal in a legendary dining room is sudenly not enaugh. He wont get a happy though unless its a masterpiece meal in an epic room with waterfall, and he will demand higher quality clothing to replace his old clothing that is put into the cabinet.

A noble will demand masterpiece giant cave spider silk clothes etc acording to the overaal level of the wages. So in a rich fort demands increases to meet the surplus. what keeps this is check in a large enough fortress is the maltusian logic. if prodution increases then so should the number of dwarfes. and since new dwarfes, may it be children or imigrants increase demand while not correspondingly increasing productivity, poverty continues to be spread amongst the lower classes. so that the middle class (craftdwarfes and carpenters) have a higher standard of living than the lower class, peasants and haulers. and the nobility have an even higher standard of living, while providing the fort with something of value. say politcal stability, give happy thoughts to dwarfes who have been talked to by a noble etc.

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DonerKebab

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2008, 11:57:00 am »

Quift: No see, that's my point, if production is too onerous, your military dwarves won't have time to train.  Maybe the balance isn't perfect, but I view production as the early to middle game.  Yes, you have mastered this part of the game, but the game is incomplete currently.

Once your economy is humming along, you're supposed to be able to send your armies out and conquest other nations.  Presumably the surviving military after a battle won't be stripping all the dead bodies and sending masterwork plate armor in caravans back to your fortress for your new recruits.  You'll probably be sending caravans of resources the other direction.  Also, goblins won't be incessantly throwing themselves on your traps.

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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2008, 05:42:00 pm »

I was just looking at my farms, and i do believe there is some kind of degradation of soil. One of my farms has Ft 0/1 and I can't plant seeds there anymore. The other three farms are doing fine, but they went from Ft 0/25 to Ft 0/14.

Time to flood the farms again I think.

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Fenrir

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2008, 05:50:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Kogan Loloklam:
<STRONG>I was just looking at my farms, and i do believe there is some kind of degradation of soil. One of my farms has Ft 0/1 and I can't plant seeds there anymore. The other three farms are doing fine, but they went from Ft 0/25 to Ft 0/14.

Time to flood the farms again I think.</STRONG>


Ft x/x is how much fetilizer you need to fertilize your fields to increase their yield and how much you have. (Please verify.) You don't need fertilizer to farm.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2008, 07:03:00 pm »

Yes, I was wrong. The reason for the redness is unknown, but it wasn't from the fertilization situation.
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... if someone dies TOUGH LUCK. YOU SHOULD HAVE PAYED ATTENTION DURING ALL THE DAMNED DODGING DEMONSTRATIONS!

herrbdog

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2008, 07:44:00 pm »

The redness is the fact that it is currently out of season to plant whatever you were trying to. use 'A' 'B' 'C' 'D' to switch to spring, summer, autumn, winter (respectively) and set planting for that season. seasons that have already passed for the year will be redded out, and in the last couple of weeks of the year (late winter), even winter crops will be redded out.
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Quift

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2008, 03:46:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by DonerKebab:
<STRONG>Quift: No see, that's my point, if production is too onerous, your military dwarves won't have time to train.  Maybe the balance isn't perfect, but I view production as the early to middle game.  Yes, you have mastered this part of the game, but the game is incomplete currently.

Once your economy is humming along, you're supposed to be able to send your armies out and conquest other nations.  Presumably the surviving military after a battle won't be stripping all the dead bodies and sending masterwork plate armor in caravans back to your fortress for your new recruits.  You'll probably be sending caravans of resources the other direction.  Also, goblins won't be incessantly throwing themselves on your traps.</STRONG>


what's the reason to send out armies to conquer other cities if there is no underlying economic reason? War is not wages because it sfun but as a poitical military way to expand the economy due to limited resources.

to set up production and produce a finite amount of goods which will allow the fortress to prosper indefintly and then go to war seems absurd. One shouod gpo to war because of a demand driven economy demands more resources. Do you poorest hauler walk around in jewels and silk clothing? Then the demand for platinum stautes should be through the roof, not to mention that the nobles would demand to all have epic bedrooms, with three stories, and the craftdwarfes will pay 2000 in rent. And the word of the great standard o living in your fort draws countless immigrants for which you have no job, so you draft them and send them out to war so that they might bring back the goodies you deperatly need toprevent a recession.

This is how war would work in medieval italy, between merchant city states. its quite an apt model i think.

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DonerKebab

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2008, 11:27:00 am »

For their women.  Sheesh.
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Fenrir

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2008, 11:40:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by DonerKebab:
<STRONG>For their women.  Sheesh.</STRONG>
I don't think that's why dwarves would siege a goblin tower.
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Kagus

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2008, 11:47:00 am »

Dwarven women have thick beards and even thicker muscles.  Goblin women are petite ([NARROW]) and do not cull the untoward symbols from names.

Deathworks

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2008, 02:45:00 pm »

Hi!

There are many reasons why real humans kill other real humans in real life. Greed is a major one, but not the only one.

Another major reason is religious fanatism. Things like the crusades were such abominations brought to you thanks to religion.

Then, you also have racism. Just think of the charming word 'ethnic cleansing' and look at the civil wars in Africa - the people killing each other there are really poor and they do not have any monetary gain from this.

I also believe that the Israel problem can not be reduced to a question of resources, yet many people keep on dying in that wretched desert, which, as far as I know, has no really valuable resources except for some religiously interpreted ruins.

And this is only what we are dealing with in reality.

In the world of dwarf fortress, Gods are real, it would seem. Serving them and their cause and also fighting for that cause is even a stronger motivation than in our real life modern societies.

And while real life humans are killing each other just over differences in the skin color, we have several intelligent races in the world of Dwarf Fortress which may or may not be able to interbreed. How much more racism and hatred will there be between goblins and dwarves, goblins and kobolds, dwarves and humans, humans and elves, and so on? And if you consider them just as likely to engage in the racism we know from everyday life, there is a likelihood of dwarves against dwarves and goblins against goblins.

With such motives in mind, the real wealth question is often moved into the background. Sure, racists argue that the others steal the resources, but their racist actions usually do not result in greater wealth for their supporters, but rather even greater poverty.

Thus, I do not believe that wars need to be a profitable investment in order to be a likely activity.

Deathworks

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Cosmonot

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2008, 04:00:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>Dwarven women have thick beards and even thicker muscles.  Goblin women are petite ([NARROW]) and do not cull the untoward symbols from names.</STRONG>

Only elves have [NARROW]. The reason goblins show up as "narrow" is because dwarves are [STOUT]. Humans and goblins have neither [NARROW] nor [STOUT], but human clothes don't appear "narrow" to dwarves because "large"/"small" takes precedence over "narrow"/"stout".

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Fenrir

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2008, 04:34:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Deathworks:
<STRONG>Hi!

*attempts to justify Dwarf Fortress wars with real world examples*

Deathworks</STRONG>


Why do dwarves do anything they do? Because the player wills it! Our dwarves go to war to satisfy our lust for blood. That's all the justification needed. I think the player plays as Armok himself.

Wars or no wars, food is too easy to get.

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Deathworks

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2008, 02:56:00 am »

Hi!

quote:
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>Why do dwarves do anything they do? Because the player wills it! Our dwarves go to war to satisfy our lust for blood. That's all the justification needed. I think the player plays as Armok himself.</STRONG>

Well, in that case wouldn't these wars be 'crusades'? After all, they are waged in the name of 'God'...

:) :) :) :) :) :)

Deathworks

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Kagus

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Re: The Problem with Produce
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2008, 06:48:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Cosmonot:
<STRONG>

Only elves have [NARROW]. The reason goblins show up as "narrow" is because dwarves are [STOUT]. Humans and goblins have neither [NARROW] nor [STOUT], but human clothes don't appear "narrow" to dwarves because "large"/"small" takes precedence over "narrow"/"stout".</STRONG>



Yes, but saying [NARROW] is much more elegant than saying [NOT_STOUT_AND_THUS_MILDLY_SLIMMER_THAN_DWARVES].

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