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[Failbird105]

... well now that I've seen the exact wording of the passive I sure hope it is, because I have to admit that I was working on the thought process that the enemies would be kept to the same general standards of balance the players are.

What's the balance in having Submerge be a one-time use ability that costs 2 AP and 5 SP if all it takes is two attributes(either one passive and one on a weapon, or on a weapon) to literally ignore it? I feel like I wasted the attributes on both Submerge and Call the Deep when the former is barely usable and ignored by basically everything when I actually manage to get it off and the latter relies entirely on the former to be used.

If players can get that passive, then Submerge feels way overpriced because its effect is rather minimal, if we can't then Submerge feels like it's even more overpriced because it's more detrimental to use than it will ever be for the enemies it's getting used against.

[Devastator]

Even if it isn't, I'd expect the +3 defence from simulating Enclosed would still apply, which is rendering all the enemies on the map basically toothless for three turns.

[Failbird105]

Except the greens, the sniper boss, and CS all ignore enclosed and defensive last I checked

*edit: They ignore defensive, but not enclosed? So, wait, does that mean that people who turn eclosed to defensive still receive the enclosed bonus or?

[USEC_OFFICER]

... well now that I've seen the exact wording of the passive I sure hope it is, because I have to admit that I was working on the thought process that the enemies would be kept to the same general standards of balance the players are.

Enemies will have abilities and traits that I wouldn't accept on a player, so that I can try and make more interesting battles without being as constrained. I will admit that I messed up the balance for this mission however. I should have had more aggressive enemies with shorter ranges, since I didn't realize how range-focused the group was. Nobody really has any good weapons with movement enabled, so engaging the sniper drones is much harder than it should have been. Having most of the enemies move towards the Ziva's Revenge and into range would have worked much better.

What's the balance in having Submerge be a one-time use ability that costs 2 AP and 5 SP if all it takes is two attributes(either one passive and one on a weapon, or on a weapon) to literally ignore it? I feel like I wasted the attributes on both Submerge and Call the Deep when the former is barely usable and ignored by basically everything when I actually manage to get it off and the latter relies entirely on the former to be used.

If players can get that passive, then Submerge feels way overpriced because its effect is rather minimal, if we can't then Submerge feels like it's even more overpriced because it's more detrimental to use than it will ever be for the enemies it's getting used against.

75% of enemies in this battle have nothing to negate the effects of Submerge, though most of them were killed in the initial barrage. Additionally all of the enemies would suffer from the penalties of enclosed, though you activated it while they were outside of its radius so that isn't relevant. Since Amphibious existed from the start of the game I'm not sure why you're complaining about it being unpriced now. It might be because I worded Amphibious poorly though. It's supposed to make water areas act the same as dry land for amphibious mechs, so it negates the difficult terrain, attack maluses they suffer, and defence bonuses for their target. Two amphibious mechs in a water area would thus get no bonuses to defence nor maluses to attack, so they would fight just as well as they would on dry land. That was my intent with the passive at least. I've updated the OP with a wordier but more correct version of the passive.

With all of that said, I am totally fine with you changing your traits if you aren't happy with them. If none of the other players mind it can even be in the middle of the battle and we can remove Submerged effects too. This game is supposed to be for fun after all. I'm not going to chain you to a decision because I misunderstood how it was supposed to work or didn't communicate clearly enough. I want to make sure that you're happy with how you play the game.

*edit: They ignore defensive, but not enclosed? So, wait, does that mean that people who turn eclosed to defensive still receive the enclosed bonus or?

Yes. I've reworded the Amphibious trait, so it still counts as enclosed for them. Even if I didn't reword things, I'd still rule that they would receive the enclosed bonus since it would be really stupid that a passive would hurt them in this scenario. It's supposed to be purely a bonus, with its strength limited by how constrained it works.


Sorry about all of this. I need to put more work in considering balance and communicating clearly. I know those aren't my strong points.

[Devastator]

I'm not worried.  I'm having fun.

[Failbird105]

I wasn't complaining about amphibious, amphibious is fine as is, and if her mech had been amphibious that would have been fair play(though it still would have felt kinda targeted at subverting me in particular)

I'm just annoyed that I made an ability that was meant to slow down everything but amphibious enemies, and literally the very first boss has a passive I didn't even know was possible to have that subverts the need for amphibious anyway.

I just... I feel like I'm useless in this battle. I've defended us for a few turns, and used one, soon to be two finishers. Meanwhile, I literally can't use any attacks this turn, and likely won't be able to next turn either.
I'm honestly just not sure Submerge is worth having when all the enemies I'd be using it on are either dead or out of range before I have the chance to take advantage of it.

[IronyOwl]

Wretched Deep waited its turn for Justice Kiss to attack the Orchid, before once again, its body split.

Wretched Deep shows Orchid drone 1 what lies Beyond the Gate

Move north to the (western) pylon. Kick Yellow 1.

You guys are both trying to finish off the same bot. Might wanna reconcile that. D:

EDIT: Unless you meant literally just kick it with a boot, not use your finisher named Kick the Can. Action edited to assume that's the case.

[a1s]

Can we, in fact, try finishers on enemies that aren't at 0 HP?

[USEC_OFFICER]

Yes, but unless the Finisher deals damage somehow it won't finish them off and you'll just have wasted your turn. They have to be at 0 HP for a Finisher to successfully hit, though nothing stops you from targeting an enemy about to be reduced to 0 HP by an ally. I might change how Finishers works later but for now that's how it's written.