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[ldog]

Bah. after removing the baths on the services level, there is no longer enough room for magma, so I swapped the clothier and metalworker sections back to their original locations. I'll add a note to the walkthrough to suggest leaving an empty level underneath industry for magma purposes.

What about the necessary holes that need to be channeled for the magma workshops?

That's what Myk was talking about. I'm not sure you can build a normal shop over them so it's something to be done by hand. Like my current embark is on a volcano so I can get right to them, but if I had to bring it up from the magma sea then I would be running regular shops for some time in all liklihood. (verified, you can't place non-magma shops over a hole)

Oh, I looked on your google Myk, just make the corridors to hospital and tavern 2 blocks longer each, magma will fit in 11 blocks wide.
Voila!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

#dig label(services1) start(23; 22; staircase center) message(This would be a good time to queue manager orders for /services2. Once the area is dug out, continue with /services2.)


d d d d d d d d d
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d d d d d d d d d d d d d d h d d h d d h d
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d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
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d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d ' ' ' d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d ' ' ' d d d d d h d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d ' ' ' d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
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#>


If you leave the stairs out of level plans, it makes it much easier for me to update mine if I don't have to rip them out of every level
Even if you don't adopt the ramps, I would just make the stairguide 3x3 and leave it at that. If you're thinking about early time spent mining exploratory stairs, then this is as good a time as any to introduce noobs to our good friend "Marker Only"

Ordinarily I would just as soon spread across more Z-levels but I tend to play with custom worlds designed by Vjek and the 1 big flaw (for me) is they tend to be shallow. I've been foregoing guilds level and squeezing them into services levels too.

Piles working fine with new alias. More thought about them, I'd combine steel and bronze instead of iron, since if I can't make steel (perish the thought!) then I'm probably making my gear from bronze, not iron.

So we made it almost until the end of the first season and then we crashed. I was in the middle of using planning mode to build the ashery (because some workpile decided to snatch my barrel). Industry2 gets a lot of job cancellations in general (lost or missing). I was trying to pre-empt by cancelling and designating normal builds. Actually I am getting the same lost/missing BS with regular jobs just as much. This feels like the worst version of DF ever.

Had to repeat most of the month of March, but didn't crash again (also didn't play with planning mode again) and we made it to Summer. I went and cancelled any leftover gather plant designations before the end of the season.

By the by, doing this with mason 5, carpenter 5, mechanic 5, stonecrafter 5, weaponsmith5/grower3, miner5x2. Only brought an axe, had to make bronze picks but equipped all 6 non-woodchopper. The non-miners made level 2-3 and the miners made 7. So have managed to dig out surface 3, industry1, about half of farming1. Tunnel dug, magma should arrive by the time they get the smelters built.

Still not really sure if it's worth bringing trained miners or not, but definitely not if you are making picks. I think it takes too long getting temp forge setup and picks made and it costs too much time, on a dangerous embark I'd have been screwed. I will probably still bring mats for bronze but also bring 2 picks next time.

[myk]

Oh, I looked on your google Myk, just make the corridors to hospital and tavern 2 blocks longer each, magma will fit in 11 blocks wide.
Voila!

fair enough. done. This let me reorganize the jail cells into a nicer pattern as well.

If you leave the stairs out of level plans, it makes it much easier for me to update mine if I don't have to rip them out of every level

will do.

If you're thinking about early time spent mining exploratory stairs, then this is as good a time as any to introduce noobs to our good friend "Marker Only"

I went back and forth on marker mode. I eventually decided against it for the reason you allude to -- newbies aren't familiar with it and it could frustrate them. Instead I went with dig priorities on the stair guide so miners would only dig down once there is nothing else to dig on the upper levels.

Piles working fine with new alias. More thought about them, I'd combine steel and bronze instead of iron, since if I can't make steel (perish the thought!) then I'm probably making my gear from bronze, not iron.

so, upper meltables: steel and bronze, lower meltables: all metals other than steel and bronze?

So we made it almost until the end of the first season and then we crashed.

This crashiness worries me. I've been through dreamfort dozens of times, and the only times I've gotten DF to crash are when I've recompiled DFHack and reinstalled it while the game is running. If this is a problem with quickfort (or with the DFHack library functions it calls), it's going to be hard to track it down. I'll try to reproduce it while playtesting the new dreamfort changes.

I was in the middle of using planning mode to build the ashery (because some workpile decided to snatch my barrel).

barrel snatching stockpiles are the *worst*. I try to build industry before farming for that reason.

on another note, buildingplan is the other potential source of crashes. I essentially rewrote the entire plugin for this release so it could support all the building types. It is *possible* that I have a bug somewhere in there. If only I could reproduce the crash, then I could run df in a debugger and get the stack trace.

Industry2 gets a lot of job cancellations in general (lost or missing). I was trying to pre-empt by cancelling and designating normal builds. Actually I am getting the same lost/missing BS with regular jobs just as much. This feels like the worst version of DF ever.

even with buildingplan enabled, you're still getting job cancellations? that's what buildingplan is supposed to prevent..

just to clarify, quickfort uses buildingplan to build buildings regardless of whether "planning mode" is enabled for that building type. As long as the buildingplan plugin itself is enabled, quickfort will use it.

[ldog]

Oh, I looked on your google Myk, just make the corridors to hospital and tavern 2 blocks longer each, magma will fit in 11 blocks wide.
Voila!

fair enough. done. This let me reorganize the jail cells into a nicer pattern as well.

If you leave the stairs out of level plans, it makes it much easier for me to update mine if I don't have to rip them out of every level

will do.

Awesome! Thanks!

so, upper meltables: steel and bronze, lower meltables: all metals other than steel and bronze?

That's what I went with. Iron is still better than bronze but I don't think I've ever not had flux and had iron, but I have had flux and no iron. If I didn't have iron on the map I would be recycling it from goblinite in all liklihood.

This crashiness worries me. I've been through dreamfort dozens of times, and the only times I've gotten DF to crash are when I've recompiled DFHack and reinstalled it while the game is running. If this is a problem with quickfort (or with the DFHack library functions it calls), it's going to be hard to track it down. I'll try to reproduce it while playtesting the new dreamfort changes.

Yeah, it's been a nightmare. I have generated at least 7 worlds with 47.04 now and all have suffered the same fate. I haven't crashed again since reload with this one, mid-June, got first migrant wave, still going strong. I have plant gathering set on the surface zones, although hating it...the miners would rather pick fruit than mine even. I still suspect the plant gathering.

I was in the middle of using planning mode to build the ashery (because some workpile decided to snatch my barrel).

barrel snatching stockpiles are the *worst*. I try to build industry before farming for that reason.

I've complained about that in the past. I see it still isn't fixed (I don't give a fuck what Mr "I don't play fortressmode" Toady says, I consider it an undesirable feature). Once again something from the old Quickfort; the small booze piles on every level. Worked great except each tied up an extra barrel. Somehow between the food and the booze pile on the surface 1 of them decided they needed an extra barrel. I think I made a really good case about why this was a worse issue than whatever it potentially was useful for but was shot down, and I let it go.

on another note, buildingplan is the other potential source of crashes. I essentially rewrote the entire plugin for this release so it could support all the building types. It is *possible* that I have a bug somewhere in there. If only I could reproduce the crash, then I could run df in a debugger and get the stack trace.

Industry2 gets a lot of job cancellations in general (lost or missing). I was trying to pre-empt by cancelling and designating normal builds. Actually I am getting the same lost/missing BS with regular jobs just as much. This feels like the worst version of DF ever.

even with buildingplan enabled, you're still getting job cancellations? that's what buildingplan is supposed to prevent..

just to clarify, quickfort uses buildingplan to build buildings regardless of whether "planning mode" is enabled for that building type. As long as the buildingplan plugin itself is enabled, quickfort will use it.

I wish I could isolate it down to something repeatable. Other than the caravan crashes nothing is reproduceable. https://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=15384 is a save that will crash reliably shortly after unpause. It's been verified on Linux as well.

Yes, the industry level in particular for some reason. The farming level not so bad. I can't get much further to date.
I'm assuming buildingplan is enabled.

Just took a peak at the latest, I think I'd push the cells up even further (even with the tavern rooms) and then maybe put a barracks for the city guard in between the cells and the stairs.

LMAO! So with all the vents, where do I get miasma? From a piece of rotten cheese in the farmers workshop. Too funny.

[myk]

so, upper meltables: steel and bronze, lower meltables: all metals other than steel and bronze?

That's what I went with. Iron is still better than bronze but I don't think I've ever not had flux and had iron, but I have had flux and no iron. If I didn't have iron on the map I would be recycling it from goblinite in all liklihood.

that sounds like the upper meltables should be steel, iron, and bronze then, no?

I wish I could isolate it down to something repeatable. Other than the caravan crashes nothing is reproduceable. https://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=15384 is a save that will crash reliably shortly after unpause. It's been verified on Linux as well.

Thanks for that save. It's crashing due to stack overflow in the DF binary -- infinite recursion. I'm getting more suspicious of the "I'm my own grandparent" behavior that DFHack has with created zones. (see the bug for more details)

Just took a peak at the latest, I think I'd push the cells up even further (even with the tavern rooms) and then maybe put a barracks for the city guard in between the cells and the stairs.

I had intended the barracks to be built in the empty room across from the trade depot on the surface. Do we need another one down on the services level?

[ldog]

Well I had my discussion with the liason and am actually conducting a trade, no crash.
So I guess it was the zones. I'm glad I popped in this thread, the zones were the last thing I thought it might be.
I'm wondering now if I delete them from some of the other saves if they will stabilize.

so, upper meltables: steel and bronze, lower meltables: all metals other than steel and bronze?

That's what I went with. Iron is still better than bronze but I don't think I've ever not had flux and had iron, but I have had flux and no iron. If I didn't have iron on the map I would be recycling it from goblinite in all liklihood.

that sounds like the upper meltables should be steel, iron, and bronze then, no?

I wish I could isolate it down to something repeatable. Other than the caravan crashes nothing is reproduceable. https://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=15384 is a save that will crash reliably shortly after unpause. It's been verified on Linux as well.

Thanks for that save. It's crashing due to stack overflow in the DF binary -- infinite recursion. I'm getting more suspicious of the "I'm my own grandparent" behavior that DFHack has with created zones. (see the bug for more details)

Just took a peak at the latest, I think I'd push the cells up even further (even with the tavern rooms) and then maybe put a barracks for the city guard in between the cells and the stairs.

I had intended the barracks to be built in the empty room across from the trade depot on the surface. Do we need another one down on the services level?

I'm torn on the iron, probably the lower. The only time I wouldn't have coal/flux/iron on my embark are if I wanted to make myself suffer. I would go so far to say as long as there is steel, candy and sand I will deal with anything else the game can throw at me (although I'm not a fan of syndrome rains and reanimation)

Oh, I build 1 barracks per squad usually, and I tend to have 2 infantry and 1 marksdorfs, like I said I don't usually use the city guard, but I'd make them another marksdorf squad for a total of 4.
The surface location is good, I'd put an inf squad there, another at my cavern entrance. I pretty much don't want anything coming into the fort without going past an inf squad. Sometimes I have extra barracks as well. I might go a bit overboard, but I'd probably do a duty rotation with this fort to prevent cave adaptation on them.

[myk]

Well I had my discussion with the liason and am actually conducting a trade, no crash.
So I guess it was the zones. I'm glad I popped in this thread, the zones were the last thing I thought it might be.
I'm wondering now if I delete them from some of the other saves if they will stabilize.

I just verified this with the save you posted. Removing all zones before the merchants unload avoids the crash.

pull request with the fix: https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/pull/1759
Thank you very much for finding this and helping me debug it!

[ldog]

Well I had my discussion with the liason and am actually conducting a trade, no crash.
So I guess it was the zones. I'm glad I popped in this thread, the zones were the last thing I thought it might be.
I'm wondering now if I delete them from some of the other saves if they will stabilize.

I just verified this with the save you posted. Removing all zones before the merchants unload avoids the crash.

pull request with the fix: https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/pull/1759
Thank you very much for finding this and helping me debug it!

Awesome! Glad I could help.
Glad I can play now too

[ldog]

Oh! You did go with my ramp
Add another channel/floor over farmers workshop (the rotten cheese incident).
I like the smaller refuse pile, although still say corpses need wheelbarrows. I can make it work in that space though, so I can deal if you are deadset against it.

I'm also rethinking the order; it is much faster to dig in soil so getting farming layer done before industry allows to get buttoned up faster (and I like getting my food & booze underground asap) if a smaller subset of flooring is done for surface.
Since I'm going to gen a fresh world to celebrate my new found freedom from crashes I'll give it a shot if I can figure out how to get this xml converter to work.

Some more work order stuff:
Dwarven peanut butter (rock nut paste & oil, soap). I think I use the tallow for cooking instead of making soap, although I guess one could do both.

mill seeds/nuts to paste
at least 30 unrotten PRESS_LIQUID_MAT-producing seeds
at most 10 non-pressed PRESS_LIQUID_MAT-producing

press liquid from paste
at least 1 non-pressed PRESS_LIQUID_MAT-producing glob
at least 1 liquid container
at most 10 SOAP_MAT-producing liquid

make soap from oil
at least 1 lye-containing item
at least 1 SOAP_MAT-producing liquid
at most 25 soap bars

Make cheese
at least 1 unrotten milk item

Brew drink from plant could use a check for empty food containers to reduce cancellation spam.
Could also use a brew drinks from fruit.

Add at most 0 bit & lignite to make charcoal order. (wood is either common or a precious commodity depending on embark, plus cutting/gathering/processing all that wood is a big time sink)
Auto-smelt for the other ores.

I'm guessing the auto-tailor works? I haven't gotten that far, but will try it without my usual clothing orders. Also leather armor/shields? Meh! I never use leather armor. Since marksdorfs like to melee more than they should, I give them the same armor, also steel xbows. It also protects them from elite goblin archers sniping them through fortifications (It has happened to me more than I like). I do make leather gloves, hoods, shoes for civilian wear. Also would benefit from "type leather" added to stock check, unless the idea is they are only made if there is a lack of metal armor.

Oh, as far as the job cancellations, I did come across a note somewhere about job cancellations being caused by item scatter (from deconstructing workshops), highly likely I had some of that going on since I start removing the surface workstations before industry2 is done.

Can confirm my lye-making order works correctly.

[myk]

Oh! You did go with my ramp

Yeah -- I haven't tested all these changes yet, but unless it causes unforeseen problems, I'm totally open to keeping it.

Add another channel/floor over farmers workshop (the rotten cheese incident).

done

I like the smaller refuse pile, although still say corpses need wheelbarrows. I can make it work in that space though, so I can deal if you are deadset against it.

not set against it at all, I just need to write the feature that will allow setting of wheelbarrow counts per stockpile, probably in the #place blueprint. the default for quickfort is 0 wheelbarrows, and I need to be able to set the wheelbarrow count regardless of whether the interface expects "www" or "w3{Enter}"

Some more work order stuff:
Dwarven peanut butter (rock nut paste & oil, soap). I think I use the tallow for cooking instead of making soap, although I guess one could do both.

I had reserved the tallow for soapmaking purposes since it's low value and eating it doesn't make dorfs happy. I'll work your suggestions in. Thanks!

I'm guessing the auto-tailor works?

Yeah, I've been happy with it in my long-running fortresses. It significantly reduced the complexity of the manager orders.

Also leather armor/shields? Meh! I never use leather armor. Since marksdorfs like to melee more than they should, I give them the same armor, also steel xbows. It also protects them from elite goblin archers sniping them through fortifications (It has happened to me more than I like). I do make leather gloves, hoods, shoes for civilian wear.

I'd like to keep those in to cover players who use the "defaults". The orders only keep one in stock at a time so it's not too much waste for those who don't use them.

Oh, as far as the job cancellations, I did come across a note somewhere about job cancellations being caused by item scatter (from deconstructing workshops), highly likely I had some of that going on since I start removing the surface workstations before industry2 is done.

that's very likely. I've run into the same thing when I disassemble the starter workshops on the surface. I call it out in the surface walkthrough, but it's a real annoyance.

[ldog]

Oh! You did go with my ramp

Yeah -- I haven't tested all these changes yet, but unless it causes unforeseen problems, I'm totally open to keeping it.

I'm ready to give the new plans a whirl, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to make the xlsx2csv script work though (yes, I downloaded it and I have Python installed) so having to combine sheets by hand.

Historicly for me, the central ramp works as well as stairs, although the single wide I am concerned about collisions but there honestly isn't much you can do about it, even wide hallways are no guarantee dorfs won't run into each other. The 3 wide was mainly for carvans, I think they still ran into each other just as often, but it would require a 7 wide shaft. I think we could make the ramps 2 wide without otherwise adjusting your layouts, I might give that a shot too. 2x2 wide ramps should be able to handle a lot of traffic.

Also leather armor/shields? Meh! I never use leather armor. Since marksdorfs like to melee more than they should, I give them the same armor, also steel xbows. It also protects them from elite goblin archers sniping them through fortifications (It has happened to me more than I like). I do make leather gloves, hoods, shoes for civilian wear.

I'd like to keep those in to cover players who use the "defaults". The orders only keep one in stock at a time so it's not too much waste for those who don't use them.

Oh good point! I sometimes forget about other playstyles, which becomes a pain when I want to do something different myself. Yes, flexibility is good!

Aack! Speaking of the ramps, found an error. My fault. Starting from 3rd level for the odd levels needs to be(actually it could be done on the first with no harm)

Code: [Select]

#>
h d
` ` `
d h `
#>

So the pattern is:

Code: [Select]

#> # #
h d
`
d h
#> # #
d
h ` h
d
#> # #

There is also no reason the central column couldn't be dug out if desired, as long as those corner tiles are left solid to support the ramps we're good.

Farming plan missing a "Z" on farm workshop center.

[myk]

Ok, now that the crash bug is dealt with, let me summarize the changes to dreamfort based on the last two pages, just to make sure I haven't missed anything and so we can discuss any loose ends.

Already done:

• fixed zones not being marked as active (PR)
• replaced central stairway with a spiral ramp to prevent unintended deaths. documentation updated to refer to a central ramp instead of a central staircase, and instructions included in the walkthrough for how to extend the ramp further down.
• removed staircases in all other blueprints (now handled by central ramp laid down by the surface layer)
• fixed aliases for meltables stockpiles (PR), fixed config for steel and coal stockpiles
• swapped location of clothier workshops and metalworker workshops so furnaces have empty space beneath them (assuming industry is built 1 z-level above the services layer) for potential later "magma-ifying"
• removed baths from services layer -- without mist they just spread contaminants, and the mist was too complex to set up; removed instructions for baths from the walkthrough
• added separate minimal office for bookkeeper on farming level
• reduced size of refuse feeder pile and allowed all refuse to be quantum stockpiled.
• removed wells from grand hall to simplify cistern
• made the jail cells actual cells with walls
• added a fourth jail cell because symmetry (since the services level needed rejiggering to remove the baths)
• documented in the walkthrough how to get lye and soap manufacturing going
• enabled furniture in goods quantum
• miasma vent added for farmers workshop (cheeeeeese!)
• fixed ramps as per latest post
• add barracks on services level (though open for suggestions on design)
• swap iron for bronze in the upper meltables pile
• forbid steel and bronze in the lower meltables pile

TODO:

• rework surface layer so basic defenses are functional sooner
• verify that lye-soap work orders need the workaround that I have in place (I'm pretty sure I verified this on 0.47.04, but I'll double check)
• revamp automation rules (coal, smelting, etc.). I think we need some deeper discussion here to make sure we've covered all the cases.
• heavy feeder stockpiles for corpses, boulders, and ores. this includes designing and implementing a mechanism for blueprints to specify (at stockpile creation time) how many wheelbarrows a particular stockpile should have
• look into PeridexisErrant's page for more ideas

other notes:

• I said dorfs like looking at urns, and you said you just made coffins. from all intents and purposes, urns == coffins
• you mentioned trouble getting xlsx2csv working. there's no need -- you can run dreamfort off .xlsx files directly. and you don't need to put all the sheets into a single file. separate files per layer works fine. I just combine them all into a single .csv file in the library for ease of distribution.
• for bronze weapons in the meltable piles, I needed to add a few aliases to the alias library. Until the next DFHack release, you can add them to your local aliases.txt file:

Code: [Select]

bronzeweapons: {metalweapons}{forbidmetalweapons}{permitbronzeweapons}
forbidbronzeweapons:  {weaponsprefix}{Right}{Down 2}{Right}{Down 6}&^
permitbronzeweapons:  {forbidbronzeweapons}
bronzearmor: {metalarmor}{forbidmetalarmor}{permitbronzearmor}
forbidbronzearmor: {armorprefix}{Right}{Down 6}{Right}{Down 6}&^
permitbronzearmor:  {forbidbronzearmor}


[ldog]

Oh, cool, running off the spreadsheets directly makes life a lot easier.

I think that covers everything. I'm ready to make a fresh play-through so we will see.
I did verify my orders will make lye and soap, but I didn't verify that they will stop at the desired thresholds(which is equally important). I also didn't try the single barrel pile, I had let my old game run a season when trying to determine the cause of the crashes, but there's a good bit of lye in the barrel already (I was probably tinkering with work orders still back then) and a ton of soap.

I figured it out with the coffins, depending what material you make them with, you get different burial items. Also interesting note on them, "corpses inside them aren't protected from reanimation", which could lead to some Fun! in the bedroom...

AHhhhhhh! Yer killin me Smalls! I'm going to stop with the 8:42PM Surface file since I see you are still tweaking.

[myk]

awesome -- I'm in the middle of rejiggering the surface level, but it should still work. surface3 is commented out at the moment, but the blueprints that were in there have been moved to surface2, so it should be fine. I haven't tested our changes yet, so keep an eye out for blueprint bugs.

[ldog]

awesome -- I'm in the middle of rejiggering the surface level, but it should still work. surface3 is commented out at the moment, but the blueprints that were in there have been moved to surface2, so it should be fine. I haven't tested our changes yet, so keep an eye out for blueprint bugs.

Ok cool. That makes sense, I wind up doing surface 2&3 together usually anyway. Although I bump the priority up for the industry dig. Ok, working off 8:42PM version.

Need to make a different checklist for the xls, but no biggy.

Zones still not active, although I am assuming I need to delete them and make them by hand until DFHack is fixed and distributed.

[myk]

Yes, active zones and non crashy zones will take a DFHack release. You should still skip creating zones with quickfort until then (unless you patch in the changes and build DFHack yourself).