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Author Topic: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [Castle Motors: COMPLETE!]  (Read 64112 times)

Aseaheru

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1966: Hauler Release]
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2020, 12:21:45 pm »

 The I4 SOHC getting called the Windmill perhaps? Getting a facelift for the Hauler, sure. get that pickup going. Get it a M3 to build out of too.
 The Baron, however, I think needs a new body. My brain says something lime a '65 3.2m or a '65 3m. Same colour, and otherwise just a incremental upgrade on it. Shove in a convertible version though. Perhaps a new Pumpstack fer it? That or a 6-cylinder Boxer. Depends on if we want comfort or prestige and familiarity.
 Next new model I think should be the Migrant, but none of the new bodies send me fer it. I vote we wait until the Baron V2 comes out to work on it. Shove it in a big arse factory at the same time.
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Fishbreath

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1966: Hauler Release]
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2020, 12:24:03 pm »

It might be fun to build something with the tiny '65 1.9m hatchback—a little city car which would benefit from production in a big factory. (The Minecart?)

I'm also a fan of sports cars, in part because I'd love to see something a bit more fun at high speeds. (The Axedwarf?)

In either case, I think we should make something that targets a big market or a lot of smaller ones (a muscle car/sports car/GT car, say—a lot of overlap there that's fairly easy to cover with trims), and go for a Large factory.

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1966: Hauler Release]
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2020, 03:17:21 pm »

A better engine factory seems good. Not sure what to name the new engine.

I like the '65 1.9 m hatchback city car idea, and I don't have any problems with The Minecart name suggestion.

No idea what'd be a significant investment in either R&D and dealerships so I'll just say 300K more for each, which sounds vaguely reasonable.
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Aseaheru

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1966: Hauler Release]
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2020, 03:25:23 pm »

Think we can get away with being two and a half years early on everything in R&D?
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mightymushroom

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1966: Hauler Release]
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2020, 03:55:31 pm »

- I would call the I4 SOHC a YaK-13 (for the 1.3L displacement).

- I agree with the suggestion to do something small with the '65 1.9m Minecart.

- I think the Baron is suffering from the sedan/wagon split. They just don't overlap as well as I had hoped. After the Minecart is underway, I would consider replacing it with a newer, bigger, true luxury car. Perhaps with a convertible option.
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Sensei

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1966: Hauler Release]
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2020, 05:15:02 pm »

At a glance, the 1.9 body should make a very competitive commuter/city. A Large factory would be nice, although it's slightly iffy if we can afford it. We also really are barely selling any Baron Wagons, although they're actually competitive family cars- its just that the Baron Sedan makes more money. 2.7m is not a bad size for a normal family car, and it will probably benefit from some extra horsepower in the new engine too. It's possible the Baron could have the makings of a good GT/Muscle in it with a new engine variant, but I don't know for sure whether it's better to do that or replace it with a newer body.

R&D costs are a little weird. Each category starts at $25k cost and doubles for each level after that. But, there's an added "lab costs". This costs a little even if you have only one category, but it gets a lot higher the more separate categories you invest in. Right now we're spending base research costs of $575k, but lab costs of $915k. The lab costs will increase if we add any research, but especially if it's in a new category. Going to 2.5 years ahead (basically, +3) in everything would cost us 12.7M, fully 11M of which is lab costs. The ultimate effect of this is that it costs the same to go from +0 to +1 in a new category as +1 to +2 in an existing category. I'm not sure if it's really worth trying to narrow our research focus to save money or not, but in any case that's too large of an investment for now.

Normally, I'll just spend on stuff that looks good until we hit a price I'm comfortable with (3-5M depending how hard we want to go in) but I can certainly focus on specific categories or goals. For example, I could focus on stuff that will make our cars more fuel efficient, or instead I could focus on stuff that helps with performance. I could also target, say, unlocking body types early, or unlocking turbos early.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 03:02:17 am by Sensei »
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King Zultan

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Re: Bay12 Motor Company: Let's Play Automation [1966: Hauler Release]
« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2020, 06:41:37 am »

I like the idea of making a sports car with the 65 3.2m station wagon, and attempting to make it the fastest thing we can because when you think sports cars you think of station wagons.
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Sensei

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The Migrant Prototype, Other Facelifts
I accidentally deleted the draft of this post when it was almost done so forgive me if it's missing a few details.

The Baron
The Baron Sedan gets a large boost from new hydropneumatic suspension. The wagon gets its main improvement from the new engine, although that also requires a suspension and tire re-tune. I looked into a muscle variant a bit, and it only scored 120, so I don't think it's worthwhile. Meanwhile, tweaking the regular variant of the Pumpstack for the Baron Sedan has me finding that premium customers like their engine even more exhaust-choked, even at the cost of some compression, so we're down to 120 horsepower now. There's probably hot rodders buying our car and getting 30% more horsepower out of it with nothing but a bigger exhaust. The Sedan is getting 132 in Luxury, while the Wagon is scoring well in Family Utility and Family Utility Premium. It's down to about 110 in Passenger Fleet- they would like cheaper interiors and more seats, but this would be to the detriment of other markets. I also considered upgrading to Advanced 60's Safety, but I would probably recommend against it unless we really want the familiarity. It would bring our base engineering time from 29 months to 40 months. Most of that 29 months is from the hydro suspension.


Incidentally, the Baron Sedan is starting to get a body age penalty. This really illustrates how it's much stronger in certain demographics, depending on how premium they are. Don't worry about it though, right now this is still basically a placeholder in the game. They say they're going to much it much more serious in a later update though...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here's the forecast for both Baron trims. Once again, it seems like the Sedan is doing much stronger. We might consider dropping the Wagon. I'd estimate that would take another 6-10 months off of our 29 month engineering time, but I'm not certain since to look I'd have to actually delete the wagon trim and then re-make it or juggle save files if we're keeping it.


The Hauler
It's time for our first facelift, with the new engine! Which, I'm leaning towards calling the Windmill, but the vote is still out. Just adding in the new engine and re-tuning the gears has us up 20 points in Family Utility. Once again they like it geared so it doesn't reach 70 miles per hour because of fuel economy calculations.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Hauler wagon gets only minor tweaks otherwise, the body is expensive so we can't afford to bump up quality in other places much. Speaking of which, I can get away with decreasing body quality (separate from Chassis, this is on the screen where we choose a body variant) to -2 without much penalty, since we have +1 from R&D.

Regular Fuel is here! Compared to the leaded fuel we're using now, it's just slightly worse. The 1 octane difference means we would have to take out about two ticks of compression, which hurts power and fuel economy. However, leaded fuel is going to be made illegal eventually, probably in 1980 in most countries. Note how the fuel availability is 100%- that means there's no real market penalty for using it. Soon we'll start unlocking unleaded Premium, Super and Ultimate, and they'll start with low availability, then increase. This can vary based on both country and target market, so we'll have to be careful about using fancy fuel. I'm pretty sure Ultimate never reaches 100% availability except for markets like Track, GT and Super.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Delivery version of the hauler also gets very few changes aside from the new engine, but it's ridiculously competitive.


I'm also testing a Utility version- it doesn't seem to do as well as the van. In fact, I think this body type (and possibly the use of FWD) skews more towards Delivery than Utility.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One snag- our base engineering time is 10 months, but it will take 26 months to go from Medium 2 to Medium 3 car factory. The existing engine factory can cover us, but we might as well upgrade it anyway if we're going to stop making Haulers for that long. Also, here's the market forecast. The Utility is the least profitable of the 3, I think, so it's debatable if we should produce it or not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Minecart
I've started a prototype with the 1.9m body, front transverse as I usually recommend for an economy car. Here's what it looks like after paint and body morphs! It will be the 70's when we release this car, so I'm taking suggestions for a new paint color. This is extremely competitive in city/commuter type demographics, and I think it might even have the potential for a sporty trim with a faster engine variant.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, the main issue is this. There's two ways we can take this car: the first is a more expensive version. This would have double wishbone suspension front and rear, and advanced safety, maybe even power steering. We're looking For this option we would be looking at 68 months base engineering time and 74 PU per car. The markets would look like this: take note of the affordability as well as the competitiveness. This will be a big investment at first, but it might be worthwhile after a facelift and getting our engineering sliders up.
Spoiler: Without Archana (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: With Archana (click to show/hide)

We could, instead, make a more budget oriented car. We'd go for more simplistic Macpherson/Semi-trailing suspension, Standard safety, and couple other tweaks. This would bring us down to 54 months base engineering and 69 PU, and a little material cost and weight savings. The big saving is the 14 months engineering time. With this, we could bring it to 60 months and launch immediately with positive automation sliders and other benefits, which would usually be our first facelift. We could genuinely target budget markets, and/or make huge margins immediately. Our markets would look like this:
Spoiler: Without Archana (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: With Archana (click to show/hide)

Then there is the matter of factories. A Large 1 factory (don't even think about L2 or L3) for cars or engines costs about $2.5B, and takes 51 months to build. Suppose we're building the Minecart out of a Large car factory. If we upgrade our existing engine factory to Medium 3 and drop the Baron Wagon, we can just barely support the Minecart and the Hauler. Of course, that gives us a lot of downtime, haulers won't be produced while that factory upgrades. Alternatively, we could go all in on a large car and engine factory. I think we can afford to do this if Baron and Hauler sales keep up while those factories are under construction. However, I probably need to make sure that we can finish the revision of our new engine into the medium factory and have it start producing before our large factory is finished. This might necessitate some gymnastics with starting the large factory in the background and adding it to the engine production with a non-engineering facelift or some nonsense, I'm not sure.

R&D: It's not related to any car in particular, but here's what I'm going with for now.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Extra car: I decided to make "a sports car with the 3.2m wagon" and I thought it was going absolutely nowhere, but then I realized I needed to remove Archana from the market averages. I thought it would do OK in Family Sport, since they don't have a preferred body type, but it actually didn't. They seem to rely on a "circle test" stat, which is based on the size of the car and is worse with larger cars. However, it DID do well in Muscle. It would look like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And this is the horsepower a Pumpstack V8 makes when you let it breath:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Markets for wagon, and convertible. Sedan (not shown) also scores 124 in Family Sport Premium.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Market forecast even says we could sell it competitively at a high margin (assuming a large factory, but then almost anything will sell well out of a large factory).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So, overall maybe not a great showing, but better than I thought. Muscle seems to like the large body. Might be something to think about with Gasmea opening up.

Meeting Time:

The Baron: Do we want to drop the Wagon? We could also consider trying to make a two variants of the sedan, one with Premium interior (and no production penalty) and one with Luxury interior, like we are doing now. We could even move our more expensive one with hand-built interiors to really target the high-price Luxury segment. Those have an even worse production penalty than luxury, but a Leatherworks factory upgrade can reduce it to the same as Luxury.
The Hauler: It looks like the Utility trim would be the least profitable, so we might not want to produce it, but we can if we want to.
The Minecart: Which direction should we take this in- the more expensive, or less expensive version? Do we want to go for a large factory?
Factories: We also have to decide what size factory our new engine should be made in. This will be shared between the Minecart, Hauler, and possibly the Baron Wagon and future models as well.
Alternative Projects? We don't necessarily have to go with the Minecart, or exclusively with the Minecart. We could investigate other options as well, such as the enormous 3.2m body. It's relatively fast for me to do a quick eyeball of a car if I don't tune it perfectly, so we can see if crazy ideas have legs.

Bonus Pic:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Aseaheru

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 1970s city car? clearly it needs to be bright orange or yellow. Of course, then it should be called the Cheesemaker, but... Yeah, large factory, and I would actually say do both a cheapo and a slightly premium should we go with it.

 Baron going with cheaper(but fancy) sedan, no wagon, and even more fancy interiors on one? Sure, that works fer me.
 On the Hauler Utility, how does it compare to utility vehicles as is? the numbers Im seeing say its worth it, but if all utility models are at that, yeah...
 With our engines being used in everything, sure, make that factory a large one. If its working less than two shifts, we can just make more cars, right?  :D

 Alternative projects... I still really want a B6 developed fer a GT vehicle at some stage. Dont need it to be used in a car anytime soon, but a familiarity and "what stupid tech can we shove on this" engine project might be good..?
 Perhaps a offload-focused vehicle based on the '60 3m? Something thats also focused on the Archanan market, so cheap out on basically everything. Call it the Peasant, and have it Peasant Blue? Primary trim would probably be that weird 4-door pickup, possibly a softtop, a standard pickup and a van(if those exist in that tree...) to go with it.

 Ya sure that capping max speed is how ya get the best fuel economy, and not having a tiny engine that has what is essentially a coasting gear? Thats the impression I get being best watching the devs dick about anyhow. :P Please dont take any of this as criticism, please dont take any of this as criticism...
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mightymushroom

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-Baron
The Baron Wagon just barely scores over 100 competitiveness and whoever is in charge at the factory still doesn't want to build them? Yeah, we can drop it in favor of making an even more luxurious options package for the sedan. (Although I kinda question myself further down.)

-Hauler
I see how the Utility version drops off over time, but so does the delivery version. (It's impressive how the wagon stays so strong.) Gotta figure we're doing at least one tune-up during that run, so I think it's mostly a matter of bringing it to production and getting familiarity.
I'm going to suggest selling the Hauler models in green color; specifically RGB(75,225,120).

-Minecart (?)
1970s city car? clearly it needs to be bright orange or yellow. Of course, then it should be called the Cheesemaker,
+1, I was just thinking earlier today that I might suggest a lemony-yellow paint.
Budget version looks better to me. With those projections, it wouldn't surprise me if we pull another Urist, making a "Budget" car that gets price bumped into the standard markets for big per-unit profit.

-Other Projects
I honestly have no clue about factory sizes. I can assume bigger is better, but I don't know which model(s) will benefit most from the boost.

With Gasmea opening soon I was thinking it could be time to make a proper muscle car. The '66 2.8m 2-door body has aggressive lines I like. (Convertible, anyone?) We could call it the Wartiger and paint it orange. That row of bodies also has other options in case we want – well, just about anything.

The "muscle wagon" results are fascinating. What if we put the standard 'smooth' V8 in the Baron Wagon instead of the low-rated engine? Are the engine qualities holding it back? We have the Hauler Wagon to fill the low-end niche now, Baron variants should be strictly upscale.
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Sensei

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1970s city car? clearly it needs to be bright orange or yellow. Of course, then it should be called the Cheesemaker, but... Yeah, large factory, and I would actually say do both a cheapo and a slightly premium should we go with it.
Well, the big choice is whether to go with the cheap or expensive suspension option. That can't change between trims, it's a permanent part of the model. I did feel out a City Premium trim with a nice interior, it scored about 132, which is okay but I suspect the factory will just make the other trim. Might be something for a facelift.

Quote
On the Hauler Utility, how does it compare to utility vehicles as is? the numbers Im seeing say its worth it, but if all utility models are at that, yeah...
Not sure. It's a little weird since I sprung for the front wheel drive, they actually get a penalty for that- Utility likes rear wheel drive, or AWD biased to the rear, because that helps pull a trailer.

Quote
Alternative projects... I still really want a B6 developed fer a GT vehicle at some stage. Dont need it to be used in a car anytime soon, but a familiarity and "what stupid tech can we shove on this" engine project might be good..?
 Perhaps a offload-focused vehicle based on the '60 3m?
I know you want a boxer, if someone else votes for it too we can try it out. I don't actually know how well GT likes boxers, but we can probably try it. I've never known Offroad to be a very profitable segment, it's small, but we can still look into a proper utility vehicle with solid axles and at least an offroad trim, since it looks like the Hauler is so-so in Utility. Now, we'll see what we can do with the bodies coming up. I recall some good-looking utility bodies in the 70's are actually bugged, they get an absurd integer-overflow level penalty for "accessibility" because something is weird with how it calculates height from the ground.

Quote
Ya sure that capping max speed is how ya get the best fuel economy, and not having a tiny engine that has what is essentially a coasting gear? Thats the impression I get being best watching the devs dick about anyhow. :P Please dont take any of this as criticism, please dont take any of this as criticism...
Yeah I'm sure. Unless it's a Utility vehicle, they tend to prefer capping the speed with an extreme overdrive rather than capping the speed at redline. If you're hitting top speed in overdrive, you're running the engine at a low RPM and good fuel economy in that speed. If you're hitting top speed at redline, you're getting awful fuel economy at top speed. In the case of the current Minecart setup, it's even realistic, the middle speed overlaps the overdrive speed, so you're in low gear accelerating up to speed and then shift into overdrive to maintain speed. just to prove it though, here's what it would score if I reduced the top speed:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's about 20 points less! Utility vehicles DO sometimes like it this other way, because it means that the first gear is much lower.

-Hauler
I see how the Utility version drops off over time, but so does the delivery version. (It's impressive how the wagon stays so strong.) Gotta figure we're doing at least one tune-up during that run, so I think it's mostly a matter of bringing it to production and getting familiarity.
One thing to be cautious about with the market projections is that they try to take into account our Awareness. Since we haven't sold a Utility vehicle in years our awareness is probably low, and would be higher going into a later facelift. That's assuming we don't have a customer base that will suck up all the delivery vehicles at a high margin before the factory can make any utility or something. However, I think the Baron is an especially egregious case because of how much more the luxury version costs compared to the basic version.

Quote
-Other Projects
I honestly have no clue about factory sizes. I can assume bigger is better, but I don't know which model(s) will benefit most from the boost.
Generally you can estimate this with market sizes. If 50% (or whatever our max awareness is) of the market is larger than the number of the cars the factory makes, then bigger is always better. Sometimes you can get away with making a trim that targets a smaller market too. Markets like Super are so small they're often best served with small factories, but if you can get them to like a car that shares a body with a larger market (like muscle, GT, luxury even) you can make a car for them in a medium/large factory.

Quote
With Gasmea opening soon I was thinking it could be time to make a proper muscle car. The '66 2.8m 2-door body has aggressive lines I like. (Convertible, anyone?) We could call it the Wartiger and paint it orange. That row of bodies also has other options in case we want – well, just about anything.
We can maybe look into that as a possibility for a muscle car soon. I had a very brief look at this and didn't manage to get it up as high as the 3.2m, but it could just need more tuning.

Quote
The "muscle wagon" results are fascinating. What if we put the standard 'smooth' V8 in the Baron Wagon instead of the low-rated engine? Are the engine qualities holding it back? We have the Hauler Wagon to fill the low-end niche now, Baron variants should be strictly upscale.
At a glance, the Baron Wagon with the V8 isn't grabbing much. Many of the markets the Baron Sedan hits have sedans as a preferred body type. This isn't tuned fully, but I don't think there's a ton of potential. I also tried a leaned-out version of the V8 for fuel economy and got similar results- I think it' too expensive maybe?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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mightymushroom

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 :-\ :( I guess that's the end of the Baron Wagon, then. The Hauler is just so much better at it.

Muscle cars gotta be big, check.

Don't mind me if I say something that doesn't work out, I'm just feeling my way through the game blind and vicariously. :)
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King Zultan

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The migrant seems like a car that should be cheap as hell, but we could also make a more expensive version, and its sad to say but its time to kill off the baron wagon.

Also I know nothing about factories and say that the biggest are the best.

And part of me wants the muscle wagon to be a thing.
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Fishbreath

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I love the idea of a huge muscle-wagon.

One question about my own ongoing game: is it possible to build cars in a Tiny or Small factory? If I want to open up a supercar skunk works division, it seems a bit spendy to have to make a Medium factory for steel presses. Do other chassis options unlock later on?

EuchreJack

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Folks, there is no Muscle Car market.  The Family Sport market would be the best for a power wagon: They don't have a body preference, AND they want performance.  Passenger Fleet would be a good alternate market.
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