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Author Topic: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]  (Read 17092 times)

scriver

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2020, 11:57:20 am »

In this post I will describe the relationship between the greed of the capitalist class and the working poor
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feelotraveller

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #181 on: June 12, 2020, 06:35:11 am »

In this post I will describe the relationship between the greed of the capitalist class and the working poor

Okay, I'll play the fall guy.  To fill in the blank:

Wage Labour

The poor get to live another day and the capitalist gets even richer.  Blacks and women should not apply know their place and stick to crime and housework respectively.  [Spoiler for NatureGirl - the last sentence is sarcasm.]
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #182 on: June 12, 2020, 07:55:24 am »

Yes it is. I understand sarcasm sometimes, just not a lot. I'd have thought it was sarcasm even if you didn't point it out. Though given how often I miss sarcasm, I'm not surprised it was pointed out. I'm not mad either. There have been, and there will likely be future times where I missed/will miss the sarcasm. Questions, in order of priority:
1. Why are there still people who think of others as lesser? I know you weresarcastic, but sadly, there are still humans who genuinely hold that sentiment thought about other groups of people.
2. Will there ever be a time when people think of the species as a whole, instead of fighting amongst ourselves?
3. Far less important question, how long has sarcasm been a thing? I never even heard the word until high school. Probably due to not really interacting with people that much through middle school.
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martinuzz

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #183 on: June 12, 2020, 08:03:44 am »

Sarcasm is as old as humanity.  I can see the proverbial Adam and Eve sitting in the mud, cold and starving, with Adam saying "two apples would have been better".
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

delphonso

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #184 on: June 12, 2020, 09:32:01 am »

1. Many people who live a life with some amount of struggle will seek to explain it by blaming other people. Often, that takes the form of racism because that's a clear "other". The lessering is probably to make themselves feel better as well. If there's enough people doing this, there doesn't need to be struggle in an individual's life to pick up the racism and lessering from the people around them. (This is my opinion on how bigotry becomes prevalent today in American white communities, I could be and probably am totally wrong.)

2. We can really only hope so. It is human nature to attend to a tribe, so I think we can only see a human-wide unification by facing an external threat (natural or extraterrestrial). Or some serious reprogramming by a very powerful school system.

3. Seeing that irony and sarcasm are pretty related, the literary roots probably date back to Greece (reinforced by sarcasm being a greek word), but I imagine it has been a tool as long as people were telling jokes.

Naturegirl1999

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #185 on: June 12, 2020, 09:47:24 am »

We all face climate change, and a global pandemic right now, get we aren't acting united. Threats and conflict ate still going on between nations during these human wide threats
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KingofstarrySkies

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #186 on: June 12, 2020, 10:26:01 am »

Everything happens so fucking much
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McTraveller

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #187 on: June 12, 2020, 11:53:34 am »

In this post I will describe the relationship between the greed of the capitalist class and the working poor

It's a sordid tale of attraction, romance, betrayal, disillusionment, and ultimately, alienation.  Is there any hope for our estranged couple?
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Egan_BW

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #188 on: June 12, 2020, 02:08:26 pm »

Sing, oh muses, of that legendary class struggle.
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Red Diamond

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #189 on: June 12, 2020, 02:54:28 pm »

Just having UBI and pricing works even better. The problem with rationing on a per-item basis is that some people will want more, some people will want less than the rations you're handing out, then they're going to have barter to even things out. And someone will definitely see that as something to exploit: rations aren't going to 100% match anyone's preferred level of consumption of anything, so a new class of people will emerge who facilitate ration-swapping, getting rich in the process. It will be a huge inefficiency in the system and the outlet to fix that will be skimming and corruption.

Also, if you ration KWh per person, then are KWh credits going to roll over at the end of the month, or is it going to be a use it or lose it thing? They can discourage additional conservation efforts. And what happens if you exceed your monthly electricity or water ration? Do they just suddenly cut you off until the start of the next month?

Rather than being wrong, you just haven't thought this stuff through in the first place. Don't just say "rationing works better" come back with an actual proposal in detail and show how and why that works, because clearly the thing we call "rationing" doesn't in fact magically work better for resource allocation. It only works in the situation where scarcity is such that you know that what you're rationing out will all get used, hence why it worked well during the wartime shortages. You'd get like 2 strips of bacon and a sausage each week and a pound of rice per person. It's hard to have waste when that's you're entire weekly food.

Yes, they cut you off until next month, that is the idea.  People generally do not work on the basis of "gotta consume as much of this as possible because I am only allowed this much" basis (and it would not matter if they did, so you have supply enough to cover the whole demand), so allowing people to save up rations beyond a certain point seems pointless and likely to result in shortages in the future (a run on the bank) as well as the whole situation with ration-swapping that you describe above.  Not making rations into pseudo-money is a good idea, that way you do not get to abstractly transfer your rations to another person and they are erased at period intervals. 

The point of rationing is to make sure than nobody has more than anyone else, thus forcing a cultural shift in consumption away from your scarce resources towards abundant resources (resource substitution).  You are only allowed to eat 2 strips of bacon, 1 sausage and a pound of rice per person, so you eat bread+chicken which are not rationed (chicken substitutes for pork, bread for rich).  Prices do not work as well to this end because if you increase the price of something people can do one of three things.

1. Spend money they would otherwise have saved. (if they are rich enough)
2. Forgo other goods in order to buy the valuable good.
3. Actually substitute to other items (what you want).

Assuming that the odds of every person doing one of those things is equal, that makes rationing 3X more effective than price-increases.  Price increases are also inferior because those with the most money are those with the greatest cultural influence.  Their demands translate into mass-demand, so if you simply make the items too expensive for anyone but the rich to buy, everyone will want what the rich people have.  If they substitute (what you want), they will resent the substitution as a sign of their low status; so the substitution will not stick.  If the rich are forced to substitute as well, you engineer a wider societal shift in consumption towards demands that are easier to meet.   

That's too early stage capitalism. The REAL late stage capitalist solution to dating will be surrendering all your rights to your corporate overlords, who will then mandatorily pair up individuals by willingness to procreate in order to ensure another generation of customers. So if you're lonely, just head on over to your local eugenics officer who will find your mate that will be genetically ideal for creating an baby that will be genetically predisposed to being gullible and obedient.

Ironically if Capitalism were that clever, then we would not need to get rid of it.  In reality Capitalism would simply make everyone work so they have no time for relationships and children, destroying the human population much as it has for instance the rest of the environment.  Dating is a consequence of Capitalist enforced 'real-world prudery', because romance in the real-world distracts from productivity. 

This really does have nothing to do with Capitalism. With online dating you’re basically propositioning random strangers. Naturally, women are going to be very, very selective about who they interact with in that sort of environment.

Your best bet would be to meet women in the real world, and rather than go propose going from zero to monogamous-serious-relationship on the first encounter, just be friends. It’s totally fine to ask a friend if they’re interested in going out to lunch or watching a movie or something. Once you’ve established that relationship, then you (and she) can assess whether stepping the commitment up a notch is the right thing to do. Even then you’ll probably be rejected most of the time. They may just want friendship, after all. But she might be able to help you find someone...

Trouble is that in the real-world, it is kind of forbidden the form romantic relationships, it has become the only allowable relationship is effectively a pre-arranged courtship.  Because relationship drama gets in the way of productivity (see above post).

That's not really a unique thing to capitalism though, is it?  I mean, even in a socialist system you want people selling solutions to problems to earn a profit.  The only difference is private profit versus public profit, right?

Actually no.  A Socialist system is not supposed to care about making a profit, only about meeting human needs.  That in practice they do is because Socialist nations exist at part of an International Capitalist system, it is often blamed for the corruption/collapse of such nations.  Basically Socialists only want to make a profit so they have $ to get stuff off Capitalists they want.
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McTraveller

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #190 on: June 12, 2020, 06:45:05 pm »

Actually no.  A Socialist system is not supposed to care about making a profit, only about meeting human needs.  That in practice they do is because Socialist nations exist at part of an International Capitalist system, it is often blamed for the corruption/collapse of such nations.  Basically Socialists only want to make a profit so they have $ to get stuff off Capitalists they want.

I have a more broad definition of "profit".  Specifically: increasing standard of living is a form of profit.  A socialist system had better be caring about increasing standard of living, not just "meeting human needs."

That last sentence - "Socialists only want to make a profit so they have $ to get stuff off Capitalists they want" could be construed as meaning that Socialism cannot produce the things people want, so only Capitalism can provide it - and I'm certain that is not really something you intend to say.
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Bumber

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #191 on: June 12, 2020, 07:43:19 pm »

Yes, they cut you off until next month, that is the idea.  People generally do not work on the basis of "gotta consume as much of this as possible because I am only allowed this much" basis (and it would not matter if they did, so you have supply enough to cover the whole demand), so allowing people to save up rations beyond a certain point seems pointless and likely to result in shortages in the future (a run on the bank) as well as the whole situation with ration-swapping that you describe above.  Not making rations into pseudo-money is a good idea, that way you do not get to abstractly transfer your rations to another person and they are erased at period intervals.

People would be incentivized to put excess water/power into a barrel/battery towards the end of the month so they could barter it for something else they want, rather than letting it expire.
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Jimmy

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #192 on: June 13, 2020, 12:15:12 am »

Thinking people will stop wanting to have more resources than others, or have a means of exerting power over others through denying or providing them resources, is a foolish pipe-dream.

It's hard-wired into the human psyche to want more. Nobody ever reaches a state of absolute satisfaction with their current level of resources, barring the fringe cases of the religiously enlightened monk. Capitalism offers the majority at least the illusion of a possibility to achieve their next level of desire through work, invention, or personal charisma. The reason the system is breaking down is thanks to the widening gap between the highest and the mean distribution of wealth. Eventually, it's expected that this will reset through social upheaval, warfare, or natural disaster.
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delphonso

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #193 on: June 13, 2020, 12:21:08 am »

That monk is an example where that hard coding can be overwritten. A utopic society requires pretty serious education changes or even brainwashing.

Egan_BW

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Re: Late-Stage Capitalism & Crisis Thread [ALL THE WAY TO HELL]
« Reply #194 on: June 13, 2020, 12:49:19 am »

You know, I feel pretty satisfied. What problems I have, I don't think they could be improved by more wealth. While there are things I'd spend money on if I had more, the things I have are really pretty nice. Having leverage over people for my own gain sounds a lot more like a horrifying liability than something good. I'm not entirely satisfied with my current level of wealth, but I'd certainly never go to the trouble of harming someone else to gain more.

Perhaps your conception of "human nature" isn't as universal as you think? Maybe, only some humans are greedy assholes.
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