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[Jimmy]

Whatever life evolves sentience after humanity is gone will hopefully have better self-control than us.

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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Social democracy is not socialism. Social democracy is the use of state structures to blunt the impacts of capitalism.

This is still wrong and liberalist propaganda. It ignores the context and history of socialist democrats as well as their goals and aims, and the ideology and thoughts of it's ideologues. It's literally just a turned-from-the-world liberal scholar's baseless and unfounded assertion made in order to disqualify the few functional socialist states we've had from counting as socialist.

Any discussion of socialism under these conditions is going to be pointless as you've already yielded the language and terms of the discussion to liberalism.

I've given that both parliamentarian socialist movements and earlier-20th century socdems were genuine examples of socialism, which is frankly generous enough. You can think what you want but there's no way I'm going to muddle the waters by calling the modern Nordic Model a socialist project, because it isn't. It has utterly rotted from the inside with liberalism and lost any kind of revolutionary potential it once had.

That's rather tragic with how deeply the capitalist class in the Nordic model was disrupted at times, but the fact remains is that they recovered and rehabilitated their power long ago.

[Tawa]

i see we're back on the good shit after like two years of patting ourselves on the back for having discussions where the right and wrong sides of bigotry treat each other nicely

Social democracy is not socialism. Social democracy is the use of state structures to blunt the impacts of capitalism.

This is still wrong and liberalist propaganda. It ignores the context and history of socialist democrats as well as their goals and aims, and the ideology and thoughts of it's ideologues. It's literally just a turned-from-the-world liberal scholar's baseless and unfounded assertion made in order to disqualify the few functional socialist states we've had from counting as socialist.

Any discussion of socialism under these conditions is going to be pointless as you've already yielded the language and terms of the discussion to liberalism.

I've given that both parliamentarian socialist movements and earlier-20th century socdems were genuine examples of socialism, which is frankly generous enough. You can think what you want but there's no way I'm going to muddle the waters by calling the modern Nordic Model a socialist project, because it isn't. It has utterly rotted from the inside with liberalism and lost any kind of revolutionary potential it once had.

That's rather tragic with how deeply the capitalist class in the Nordic model was disrupted at times, but the fact remains is that they recovered and rehabilitated their power long ago.

no offense but i feel like you're putting words in his mouth here. the nordic model as it currently exists is not synonymous with social democracy (though i wouldn't call myself a socdem, mind)

i would argue that the modern scandinavian welfare state is a genuine attempt at a gradual transition to socialism that was dragged off the rails by neoliberal labor party wings that sold their souls to the Washington Consensus and the Third Way, rather than a fake or inherently doomed socialist project

[Naturegirl1999]

What caused the Bronze Age collapse? What caused the Roman Empire to fall? I think the USA will fall, too. The constant searching for i finite wealth on a finite planet in a finite (observable) universe will stop. Whether it;s because we realize the mistake and begin focusing on caring for the planet we have (unlikely, given the humans in power currently), or we all die (more likely than the first thing)

[Imic]

Everything ends. Younger and Older Empires than the US have fallen apart in the past, and the people in them thought that such an event was just as distant or impossible as people in the US do now.

[scriver]

the modern Nordic Model

There is no such thing. There is only the SwedishNordic Model and modern Sweden no longer follows it. Or rather, the parts of it which are still of the Swedish Model are leftovers that they haven't gotten around to changing yet.

(By the way they are just now putting forward suggestions for breaking the Swedish employment safety laws further)

I've given that both parliamentarian socialist movements and earlier-20th century socdems were genuine examples of socialism, which is frankly generous enough. You can think what you want but there's no way I'm going to muddle the waters by calling the modern Nordic Model a socialist project, because it isn't. It has utterly rotted from the inside with liberalism and lost any kind of revolutionary potential it once had.

Then don't muddle the waters by calling the modern false prophets social democrats when they aren't.

[ggamer]

I've been led to believe large power structures trend towards fascism/oppression no matter how many celebrities sing songs on Twitter. But in reaching for a better form of govt I tend to draw a blank. Purposefully removing power from the state to form a much more decentralized govt might work, but then neoliberals are in love with the idea of daddy Sam graciously overruling states to give them a morsel of rights.

[McTraveller]

I'm really to grumpy today to make a pleasant contribution.  So I'm just here to watch for now.

My only observation for now is - don't fall prey to the "Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" fallacy.

[Jimmy]

I recommend we keep the capitalist tire-fire model of government running until AI sufficiently develops to the point where our benevolent artificial intelligence overlords seize control and engender a utopia of human paradise or extinguish all organic life.

Failing that, I just hope my children aren't fated to suffer life in a time of history that forces the common populace to dance to the whims of the few born into dynastic wealth. Of course, both ancient history, modern history, and current status quo mock my hopes and spit upon my dreams.

[Red Diamond]

Alright you animals, here it is. You've gone and got me to make a thread. I'll flesh out this post more later.

Since you wanted definitions, here are some:

Socialism is not when the government does things. Socialism is when workers control the means of production. That's it. It's one sentence. Anarchists are socialists. Marxists, Leninists, and Maoists are socialists. Parliamentary socialists are socialists, but don't tell anybody I told you that because they'll call me a liberal.

The workers controlling the means production practically makes all enterprises are public enterprises.  As the government is merely a group of said enterprises that automatically makes the worker-controlled enterprises either governments in their own right or part of the government.   

[Naturegirl1999]

I recommend we keep the capitalist tire-fire model of government running until AI sufficiently develops to the point where our benevolent artificial intelligence overlords seize control and engender a utopia of human paradise or extinguish all organic life.

Failing that, I just hope my children aren't fated to suffer life in a time of history that forces the common populace to dance to the whims of the few born into dynastic wealth. Of course, both ancient history, modern history, and current status quo mock my hopes and spit upon my dreams.

We are biological intelligences, perhaps our programming (aka consciousness, aka brain processes) can be moved to mechanical bodies/the Internet, that way we won’t need physical bodies anymore. A side effect of this is we won’t need as much space as we currently do, because the Internet doesn’t hunger or thirst or breathe. If the Internet can be powered by solar panels/wind power/geothermal power, we could use some bodies to maintain these power sources, and those bodies would also be powered by such sources. The bodies can probably do the maintenance while the minds within can also do other things. Like you can zone out and still be doing the maintenance, but since you’re not bound to the body, you could be playing games with people too. If any of this makes no sense tell me what parts confused you and I will attempt clarification.

[Loud Whispers]

How do you guys feel about literature regarding Late Stage Capitalism? I've been trying to spread the burgerpunk aesthetic with a righteous passion. Burgerpunk is like cyberpunk only with late stage capitalism, no neon signs (just advertisements), no conspiracies or cool cyber advancement. Just crushing mundanity as corporations consolidate their power to sell every aspect of your life for the cheapest they can get away with. Burgerpunk is a town built on McDonalds. Burgerpunk is turning brands into religions and consumers into fanatics. Burgerpunk is 5 years of work experience, programming skills, language skills and anticipation of future market demands for an entry level job.

[Egan_BW]

I'd prefer cyberpunk because then at least I get to mix in some transhumanist escapism with my crushing realism.

[Naturegirl1999]

Burgerpunk sounds like a more likely future, pekople could write Burgerpunks that guess -osdible outcomes of current conflicts/COVID/climate change

[Egan_BW]

Less of a likely future and more of a present reality, really.