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[compsognathus]

New Stuff 11/22/2017
"Goblin site denizens demand an identity instead of immediately attacking every stranger"

Why all goblin?? is not realistic.
This must depend on individual skills.
Has goblin the  individual skill?
Otherwise it must depend on the tribe.

Greater diversification between the goblin realms is needed.
Greater diversification between human realms is needed.
Greater diversification between the dwarf realms is needed.

[Bumber]

It's not just goblins. Intelligent undead will ask at necromancer towers.

[compsognathus]

It's not just goblins. Intelligent undead will ask at necromancer towers.

?

[Shonai_Dweller]

It depends on the ethics system. Previously any civ with kill_neutral:required (which goblin civs have) would attack a non-civ member on sight. 2017 introduced secret identities so you can pretend to be part of their civ. So the attack on sight had to be stalled to allow you to try to pretend to be part of their civ.

Has nothing to do with "goblins" specifically. Except that's where you see it most.

[compsognathus]

It depends on the ethics system. Previously any civ with kill_neutral:required (which goblin civs have) would attack a non-civ member on sight. 2017 introduced secret identities so you can pretend to be part of their civ. So the attack on sight had to be stalled to allow you to try to pretend to be part of their civ.

Has nothing to do with "goblins" specifically. Except that's where you see it most.

ok that's right, but fierce and brute goblins may exist that attack immediately... not always... something unsystematic like this

x=rand()%100;     //+10 if war +20 other generic...
if (x>appropriate statistics goblin) attack;


the tribal chief could also stop him later... etc...

[Shonai_Dweller]

It depends on the ethics system. Previously any civ with kill_neutral:required (which goblin civs have) would attack a non-civ member on sight. 2017 introduced secret identities so you can pretend to be part of their civ. So the attack on sight had to be stalled to allow you to try to pretend to be part of their civ.

Has nothing to do with "goblins" specifically. Except that's where you see it most.

ok that's right, but fierce and brute goblins may exist that attack immediately... not always... something unsystematic like this

x=rand()%100;     //+10 if war +20 other generic...
if (x>appropriate statistics goblin) attack;


the tribal chief could also stop him later... etc...

Perhaps, but Dwarf Fortress is a game about procedural generation in which rules and systems govern the ways everything acts. Not outright randomness (mostly).

There would have to be a reason (violent personality, insanity, recognised enemy during a state of outright war, etc) for a goblin to attack you on sight instead of following his civilizations rules

[Red Diamond]

Really all civilizations that are at war should use the demand identity system for visitors, it really should not be about goblins or ethics at all.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Really all civilizations that are at war should use the demand identity system for visitors, it really should not be about goblins or ethics at all.

It's not about goblins. At all. And it may well be the same if you're at war. But you very rarely start at war with anyone other than a goblin civ though so it's hard to test. "Enemy" is what's being checked for, and "attack on sight" is the behaviour that was changed. Generally that's determined by ethics and babysnatcher tags in the current version of the game. Society and politics arc coming up in just 10 years after Mythgen. There'll be more granularity then.

[Red Diamond]

It's not about goblins. At all. And it may well be the same if you're at war. But you very rarely start at war with anyone other than a goblin civ though so it's hard to test. "Enemy" is what's being checked for, and "attack on sight" is the behaviour that was changed. Generally that's determined by ethics and babysnatcher tags in the current version of the game. Society and politics arc coming up in just 10 years after Mythgen. There'll be more granularity then.

I knew that it was not about goblins.  I don't see it as a matter of arcs, it wasn't the best way to implement a special treatment for goblin/kill_neutral_required to begin with rather than a generic system for everyone. 

[Shonai_Dweller]

It's not about goblins. At all. And it may well be the same if you're at war. But you very rarely start at war with anyone other than a goblin civ though so it's hard to test. "Enemy" is what's being checked for, and "attack on sight" is the behaviour that was changed. Generally that's determined by ethics and babysnatcher tags in the current version of the game. Society and politics arc coming up in just 10 years after Mythgen. There'll be more granularity then.

I knew that it was not about goblins.  I don't see it as a matter of arcs, it wasn't the best way to implement a special treatment for goblin/kill_neutral_required to begin with rather than a generic system for everyone.

It was a way to quickly implement secret identities without rewriting the game. 15 years ago "goblins is bad" was enough. DF was a completely different game. Now it's not enough. Hence, society arc rewrite, planned after Mythgen.

[Red Diamond]

It was a way to quickly implement secret identities without rewriting the game. 15 years ago "goblins is bad" was enough. DF was a completely different game. Now it's not enough. Hence, society arc rewrite, planned after Mythgen.

It is an example of how the design strategy is fundamentally flawed.  Things do not fit into tidy 'arcs' because a computer game, like the real-world is not organised by "themes".  Elements of one thing do not organised with other things because they are similar, they are linked together on an entirely different basis.  So to develop a game in terms of thematic arcs does not work because mechanics that are part of one "theme" typically are closely related to mechanics that are part of another "theme". 

The organisation of the basic code for sites, requires an understanding of the security status of the different parts of the site.  It does not require a fully fledged social statuses to exist beyond the rudimentary outsider-insider distinction, the adventurer in most cases being the former.  Even though the society is already advanced enough to create several security grades for site areas, we are still using a blanket system based upon pure ethical values which results in insane, genocidal consequences in practice because the society arc is not yet come. 

Yet we have already have enough social distinctions in the game for a proper implementation of security zones to exist.  The present situation sucks up resources at a crazy rate and exists because of the flawed way the sites were originally defined without regard for security.  What we *need* people to do is keep strange people away from prisoners and valuables, not have them have to stay out of the whole site to accomplish this. 

[Shonai_Dweller]

Yes. Society and politics arc. A one-man project can only manage one thing at a time. Just the way it works.

[dadicamillette]

It is often for goblins unfortunately ^^

[Red Diamond]

Yes. Society and politics arc. A one-man project can only manage one thing at a time. Just the way it works.

As I said, it does not need that arc.  It could have been dealt with when the sites were originally set up.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Yes. Society and politics arc. A one-man project can only manage one thing at a time. Just the way it works.

As I said, it does not need that arc.  It could have been dealt with when the sites were originally set up.

Could have. Wasn't. Was 20 years ago. Different game. Code doesn't magically rewrite itself.